CO limps
BTN raises to 25$
SB folds
BB Hero raises to $80 with AKo
CO folds
BTN raises to $180
Hero?

BTN has 950$
Hero has BTN covered.


What is your stack off range here against unknown (only KK+?)
Folding does not seem to be the best option. Either 5b or flat, both of which are not that good either imo. Against a BTN open, I think AK is too strong not to 3b. However, it is tough given we are 200bb deep.

Live reads: seen btn triple barrel off earlier. old looking guy, not fishy, maybe a reg, maybe a TAG, kinda tightish but did not seem to be a nit.

I think flatting is fine. Anything less than roughly 150bbs effective I'd probably shove.

What is your plan? Try to catch an A or K and then what? A flat is not that great I would fold > 5b > flat...if V has shown some light raises then maybe 5b but OOP you ship on A or K flop and could be behind still.

I make it 375 fold to shove.

What do you know about BB here? Depending on the player I might 4 bet, flat call or fold.

I'm going to fold vs nits with a very strong raising range. We are never ahead of their range and won't make much money post flop if we do hit and have the best hand. If villain is more TAG/LAG then I flat or raise/fold, depending on how likely villain is to fold and how wide villain's range is. Against a stationary fish, I flat even if their range is pretty tight, they will call down with KK on an ace high board so hero can make money post flop. If villain is a real maniac I might even raise/call shove but only if I know villain will shove real wide.

If I know nothing about villain yet, the I fold. Too hard to make money post and too likely hero is already beat for it to be profitable.

You have to decide if he thinks you are 3 betting light based on the fact that V made a button raise. Otherwise you need to fold.

This is the worst option

i fold. I hardly see btn vs blind battle, or light 4bets, 4bet bluffs ip etc. calling a 4bet out of position is bad to begin with, it's disastrous without knowing player tendencies.

Im not sure what your saying by this- maybe I read it incorrectly. But this logic suggests to me that if your plan was to 3b /fold AK, then your 5b value range is almost nonexistent and KK+.

Seems pretty exploitable if we are 3b'ing TT+ and AK/AQ for value vs BTN open and then folding to his 4b 95% of the time.

i expect most live players to have very low fold to 3bets and a narrow 4b/gii range.

i think flatting oop is the worst option

Don't do this.

Don't 3bet 200 deep in this spot. Keep the fish in and you won't be put in a spot where you have to 4b/call off vs this BTN hoping that you didn't get coolered for 200BB

That's a fold based on the fact that you got $950 effective stacks one against another.

If he's got AA or KK you are semi-dead, if he's got any pair you are flipping if you are suited but since you are not suited you are behind. I don't think he's got AQ or AJ for the 4th bet/raise. So that's why I'm saying I would fold in this situation when at the best of 34% of flops I will make TPTK. I hope you realize that the flop bets will be huge if you decide to call his 4th bet. I even go so far as not 3bet with $950 behind. With stacks so deep you need a big flopped hand to get involved. So, you got to manage risk and see the flop first. You don't want to call 4bet or worse you doing a 5bet and be forced to continue playing for stacks practically on the blind. You have no idea where you are or where you'll be at the flop.

Flop a big hand first, after that put a "play" on the dude that he's gonna either call your abnormal bet of he's gonna raise your big flopped hand. Now you can take his whole stack.

3-bet needs to be closer to 100+ OOP this deep, and these situations will be less likely to occur. When they play back their ranges will be more defined, unless they are sickos.

the idea of getting 200bbs in with AK readless makes my balls shrivel. its a big mistake

grunch

I'm folding here and doing so happily. What kind of flop are you really hoping to see?

there's a good chance he'll have AA or KK so you can hit and get yourself into real trouble and if he has JJ-KK and an A hits you're not getting paid. Against AK you're chopping but he has position

Of course, reads come into it but I'm often flatting AK against a button raise and hoping to get max value post

The critical read here is the age of the villain, which speaks to the likelihood that he learned how to play poker on the internet. There are seasoned gentlemen on this forum who crush internet poker. But most of the older fellers like myself are, and always have been live players.

The 4betting game is just not something that's done in live poker, at least not at the limits we discuss here. Sure, people 4bet, but trust me, they don't spend five minutes worrying about how they are going to depolarize their range.

This is a sucker bet.

To be clear, that doesn't mean the guy is a fish. Some very, very fine players on this forum advocate 4betting at these limits. But its still a sucker bet, even if its done by a professional.

At 2/5 live, it's probably best to assume this is AA/KK until proven otherwise. If he's aggro enough to have a broader range, the question then becomes, what? AK is a very slight dog to any pp (48% vs 22) and any range that has more pocket pairs than broadway's is a bummer. Now, if he has a depolarized range, and he's doing this with AA,KK,72o, then you're golden. But only internet players depolarize their 4betting range. Live players may monkey-raise JJ or 88 or maybe even JTs if that's their lucky hand. But they wouldn't depolarize their range in a million years.

That's what makes live not internet,and that's why you fold this hand, absent specific reads.

Edited to add disclaimers: my comments about 4betting don't apply to the limp-raise all-in, which is a different kettle of fish. Also, it's not out of the question AK could be in this guy's 4betting range, but of course that's not relevant in this hand. Also, by "sucker bet," I don't mean "$5 hard-way 6." I mean, villain thinks you are a sucker. Which should piss you off.

Grunch

I'm assuming BTN had 950 starting the hand so if you decide to commit after your 80 raise you're essentially risking 870 to win 950 and so need to be good 48% of the time. So my question is how wide does button's range have to be for that to be true?

My poker calculator says 99+,AKo,AJs,AQs,AKs is 48/52. Do you think his range is that wide?

The problem is that if you 5b and he shoves that probably narrows his range even more (unless he's a serious bluffer) but you will be priced to call against a hand that was not really giving you 48/52.

I prefer flatting > folding > raising I think. I would like flatting more if we were going to be in position though so I'm really tempted to fold unless there are dynamics where I think he could be playing back at my aggression with his 3b which doesn't seem like the case here.

I fold easy here. We show solid strength 3 betting and not only does he not care, but he 4 bets to a size that is begging us to play.

Im done myself.

If there was a big pissy dynamic between us and i thought he could 4 bet small just trying to take the initiative back away from me, I would shove over the 180. 5 betting is of no use whatsoever. If this were the case I would give him quite a few reasons to fold TT or JJ. This dynamic doesnt happen that often at 2-5 live so is neither here or there.

Barring some extreme evidence he can be screwing around with the 180, i just fold.

If Villains 4 bet range was AA, KK and 72o... His range is said to be polarized, not de-polarized. Polarized means "at separate poles" in this case the strong pole (AA and KK) and the weak pole (72o). A de-polarized or merged range could consist of hands like JTs or JJ-88, as you say.

I'd think this is a fold. V pushes back v. our 3 bet, I have to think v has AA / KK, maybe QQ, at the very worst AK sometimes, maybe QQ IMO 1/4 of the time given the action. I fold.