Hello again. I recently posted a misplayed hand against a bluff-heavy player here: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/17...-deep-1362453/ . As luck would have it, I had an opportunity to make the proper adjustment a couple sessions later in this hand. However, there are some different dynamics to this hand (I'm OOP, villains aren't playing out of racks, multi-way pot rather than HU.) I'm not sure that I should have played this hand so passively. All opinions are appreciated.

UTG is an unknown, been playing fit or fold as far as I can tell.

MP is an aggro kid in his young 20s. He plays well when winning, but if he loses his first buyin, he'll dump rack after rack into the game trying to get unstuck (triple barreling a bunch of hands, 4betting J2 pre, etc). Bets super light but doesn't call light. He's currently on his third BI, and has been holding true to form.

CO is a stationy 5/10 player who the big games here typically revolve around. Sees >80% of flops, calls with his draws and weaker made hands and raises when strong. Happens to be a decent hand reader despite being an action junkie.

Hero has history with MP and CO, and is perceived as a tight, straightforward player who almost always has it when showing aggression. MP has specifically told me in the past that he doesn't like getting stacks in with me.

Effective stacks are $800.

PREFLOP: Hero is BB with K J

UTG limps, MP raises to 15, CO calls, Hero calls, UTG calls.

Usually I fold KJ pre when OOP, but I'm ahead of both villain's ranges, and my plan here is to either c/f flop or make a hand and c/c MP all the way to valuetown.

FLOP (60): K Q 5 - Hero checks, UTG checks, MP bets 40, CO calls, Hero calls, UTG folds.

There is a case for taking initiative here with a board texture this wet, but again, I don't want to discourage MP from barrelling his stack off.

TURN (180): J - Hero checks, MP bets 100, CO calls, Hero calls.

Maybe I missed a bet here, but MP's bet/call range is a lot tighter than his betting range. I think I make more money keeping his bluffs in. Pretty confident CO has either clubs or a pair+SD. I have relative position, so if CO does make his hand he'll let me know on the river.

RIVER (480): 7 - Hero checks, MP bets 150, CO folds, Hero calls

don't hate this, but once the action gets back to you on the turn i think a case can be made for a big c/r to avoid giving CO the right price on his draw. the river bricked as played, but there are a lot of bad or awkward cards that could have fallen.

Honestly, I think that you gotta raise the turn. There's $380 in the pot already, and your hand is not getting better. You will fold out some bluffs its true, but you will also protect your equity.

Raise turn, 275.

raise turn for value

with 380 in the pot and 650 behind i c/r to 350

i expect to be ahead of CO always and put a lot of pressure on MP.

the value from this hand is charging CO for his pair+draw or flush draw on the turn. as you stated MP is betting light, he also can have a lot of pair+draw combinations on this board.

also worth noting is his bet sizing, i feel if his holdings were stronger than yours on the turn, given CO presence in the hand and the likelihood that MP is aware CO is a station, he might be inclined to bet more on the turn knowing that CO is not folding and you can have a variety of draws and/or picked up additional equity on that turn. maybe this read is off, but id think my sizing on the turn with KQ+ is something in the range of 130-150.

as played i think you just call the river and win

Raise the turn, as everyone had said.

Other than that well played.

Flatting pre is your worst option.

Fold > 3bet >>>> call

As played, I think I c/r turn as an inducing ploy. He can turn a lot of hands into bluffs here.

Preflop: I just wanna point out EVEN THOUGH you're OOP, this is actually a spot where you should be opening it up A LOT.

Point #1: Look at the money odds. You have an aggressive player making a small raise with one caller and an expected caller (utg). Including the dead money in the blinds There's $52 in the pot (assuming utg calls) + effective stacks of now $785 = $837, make it $832 to account for rake. So you are investing $10, i.e. 1.2% of the potential money in the middle, to play. Even OOP you can be pretty loose in this spot assuming you play well postflop, and UTG isn't a habitual limp reraiser.

Point #2: You are against an aggressive bluffer spewing off his stack and a fishy guy who's expected to make his fair share of calling mistakes postflop, making your implied odds even better than normal. Much better.

Point #3: As you said, you're ahead of the pfr's range and the fish's range. This is also true, but to me it's not as important as pt 1 and 2. In limit holdem this would be critically important and thus you would probably 3bet in this spot to press that edge.

Also, you don't just have any hand. You have a hand that CAN win a big pot. KJo is also ahead of ranges here, but how often does this hand drag a big one in.

Ok so given all that, what should our range be? This ofc is a point of debate, and I see no way to safely prove which range is best, but this is what I would advocate in your situation (Just saying which hands to play, not HOW to play them): 22+, AJo+, KQo+, A2s+, K9s+, J8s+, 75s+, 54s+

BTW: This advice with your specific hand KJs is horrible: First of all, folding here is just NOT an option here, let alone the best option. This is a call or 3bet and I think 3betting here is pretty bad with your hand. Yes we're ahead of the ranges here, but 3betting a hand like KJs is just wasting its potential. Do we really wanna just win the dead money in the pot Against a guy that can bluff off tons of chips postflop and a fish that will also make tons of incorrect calls post flop? Do we really wanna 3bet KJs in this spot when at that point we're probably getting action only by better. That would be sheer folly imo. As many have said time and again. This game is NOT about winning pots. It's about winning money!

Now which hands should we consider 3betting in this spot? Well honestly, I would consider 3betting any two cards in this spot assuming I had a garbage hand like J4o, i.e. hands that pretty much never flop well. This is a pretty juicy squeezing spot--an aggressive player from mp makes a small bs raise and a superfish calls--that's a dream spot. HOWEVER there is one caveat. You're not closing the action. We have an UTG limper, and we all know that's the spot many players like to be tricky with AA/KK, and some limp hands like JJ/TT/AK/AQ that will get in our way. So assuming a clean image, I'd probably tighten up my squeeze range to A2o to ATo, K2s-K8s, KTo,KJo, QJo, Q8s. Without the UTG limper, and thus closing the action any two cards are in play here.

BTW I would NOT 3bet with a hand like AJo/KQo. These hands have too much potential to make a lot of money postflop against a bluffer and a fish and they play terrible against 3bet/calling ranges.

Flop: Good call, you probably have the best hand, but a raise just blows out worse, and you want MP to stay the aggressor and keep printing monies for your hand.

Turn: First of all, I don't think we can continue playing meekly in this spot trying to induce bluffs. With a bettor and a caller on a VERY coordinated board (and an spr of 2 after the bet and the call, [i.e. the pot is getting big and thus winning it takes priority over other pot building strategies like inducing]), and with your hand very likely being best (The MP's turn bet sizing says you have him beat, and the fish JUST calling that weak bet on THIS drawy board suggests you have him beat too), we gotta make an aggressive move here. If you were HU oop to MP, I would probably play meekly and call trying to induce further action but with the fish calling the turn, now the pot is bigger giving you more incentive to make a move and vs two players there are potentially more outs against you giving you another reason to make a move, and MP is probably less likely to bluff the river after two turn callers, especially on this board.

That said, this spot hurts my head because the stacks are weird. Here's why. A pot sized raise ($480), still leaves you with $265 and in a spot like this (where there's tons of river cards that make playing the hand OOP difficult), I don't wanna leave $265 (53bbs) in front of me thus forcing myself to make a tough decision on the river. On this board (3 connected cards and a FD), I want all my money going in on the turn, to avoid that tough river spot. BUT if you overbet shove you're probably blowing out everything worse and only getting called by better. BUT MAYBE with an spr of 2 on the turn (after the bet and the call), the pot might be big enough to justify shoving to protect our equity EVEN THOUGH we're folding out worse and only getting action from better? I really don't know!

Or maybe it's better to make some kind of small value raise that doesn't really protect our hand at all but does get more money in with the likely best hand. A raise like $300 here with the intention of shoving a blank river, and if the river card is bad it's actually easier for us to get away from with a bigger stack in front of us. IDK that seems kinda ******ed to me because you said that both these guys know how to read hands, which means they might STILL fold out worse made hands EVEN IF we raise small and good draws are still getting correct odds to call.

IDK, I hate this spot, but I think it's close between shoving to protect our equity, raising to $300 for value hoping that keeps in worse made hands but giving draws correct odds, or making a pot size raise to $480 which will also fold out worse but does give good draws incorrect odds (but obv now we're hoping they call).

Honestly, I probably grit my teeth and shove, and hate my life when called.

River: AP, it's close between betting and check/calling. I know MP is in bluff-mode, but is he really gonna bet nothing after getting two calls on the turn and thus having 2 players to bluff through on this board (one a fish and one a tight player [you] who doesn't get to the river often)?

But at the same time, we have to ask ourselves why are we betting the river? And the answer is to get hands like AA/AK to call, but the thing is those hands are like never there in this spot (MP probably raises bigger preflop and fish probably 3bets those hands). And IF we do bet the river, is MP gonna call with a hand like KT given how much he respects you? I doubt it. Well maybe we should bet the river trying to get value from the fish who may call with a hand like KT? But you said he's decent at reading hands, maybe he can find a fold here too? Or maybe we should bet to target the fish when he has a worse two pair (QJ,K5s,K7s,Q5s,Q7s) but the fish might bet this a lot of this range himself if the river goes check-check.

All in all, I like checking over betting, but it's close to me. Once you do check and MP bets you gotta call. Raising would be ******ed here (just blows out worse), and folding can't be considered with this strong of a hand against an aggressive tilting bluffy player, but honestly I still see this as a crying call, unless MP really is a crazy bluffer after he loses that first rack. A lot these bluffer types will go crazy against 1 person, trying to bulldoze their way to victory, but against 2 or more they often slam on the brakes.

folding pre is good here if you are horrible at playing postflop and hate money

Just want to say the amount of detail in this post is awesome.

Regarding the turn play, the more I think about this the more I think c/c is the best line to extract maximum value. Here are the possible scenarios I've come up with:

#1: Check/shove turn: I think this is the worst option, since it limits the outcomes to either winning the 380 in the pot or putting my stack in dead to a 2-4 outer.

#2: Check/raise turn to 300: I think this is the largest I can size my bet without the villains treating it as an all-in. It easily nets another 200 in value from CO when MP folds, but also gives CO awesome implied odds to hit his draw (200 to win 680 immediately + my remaining 440 when he hits the river, so he's getting over 5.5:1 to call). Another downside is that I probably have to fold to a 3bet. I feel like any turn aggression lets the villains in this hand play me perfectly.

#3: Check/call turn, check/call river barrel: Obviously a disaster value wise if it checks through, but I expected MP's bet size on the river to be at least 250. I expected that his sizing would generate more profit than any c/r that could get called by worse OTT. The 150 river bet threw me off.

Overall, I agree with your comments about the stack sizes. I'm putting in a c/r 100% of the time if we're 50bb deeper.

I think it looks perfect. No bull****.

Being a station is a really good way to crush a maniac; especially a spewtard maniac.

Pre:
If you can't see a flop with that hand vs that field you need to move back to 1/2NL.

Flop: the moment we hit TP, our plan should be 3 streets of c/c and let villain take himself to valuetown

Turn: nothing's changed, why should we change? I actually don't like the 'raise the turn' advice ITT. However, maybe there's a better spot....

River: Be a donk, you got it, do the hellmuthian trap and CRAI the river. it will infuriate him, and he has hands in his range that will call which you beat.

Result

Gah my edit failed.

River: Plan A. Check Call is fine
Plan B is the Hellmuthian trap mode CRAI. Favored by donks everywhere. But here its workable, as he will call with 1 pair hands and worse two pairs, lots of which are in his range.

Not a fan of plan B. Like I said in my last post, his river bet size is very suspicious. Normally this guy would fire AT LEAST 250-300 if he had a straight or if he was trying to induce a fold. I read the 150 as "I want to get called by top pair." In addition, given my image, his preflop sizing (can't have AK or JJ+), and the moderate scariness of the board with 3 face cards, the only worse hand I could put in his bet/call range is QJ, and I don't think I'm good more than 50% of the time here when I'm called.

Board: Kc Qc 5d Js 7h
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 42.105% 31.58% 10.53% 6 2.00 { KhJh }
Hand 1: 57.895% 47.37% 10.53% 9 2.00 { 55, KJs+, QJs, KJo+, QJo }

I've been reluctant to post the outcome since I'm trying not to have results-oriented discussion, but I think there has been a sufficient amount of useful feedback already. Here ya go:

your stove range for him is WAY too tight, if your villain descrip is accurate. i would have K5 and K7s in his range along with 57s and maybe 57o

And seeing the results, I can say that he got lucky--sometimes the good guys lose. Folding anywhere in there would be poor form, assuming your descrip is good.

interesting spot, I'll have to look at it again when I'm not exhausted but here's my initial reaction.

generally the only times you should ever be c/c the river instead of betting for value yourself is when you suspect your opponent will value bet a range of hands you are ahead, but that will fold if you come out and bet yourself.

the other time to c/c the river is when inducing a bluff, but the presence of the CO changes things a bit.

at first glance I'd say your hand has too much value to just c/c turn and river. if it were HU with the maniac that would change things a bit, but with two opponents on a pretty draw heavy board like this I would be looking determine the best way to continue to get value from worse and charge any draws. that is much more important at this point than allowing the maniac to continue barreling with air (which is also much less likely when two opponents are involved, and if he isn't a complete air head, should realize the turn is a terrible card to continue on with his bluffs).

I think its close btwn going for a c/r and taking the betting lead yourself. I like leading yourself for about 140-150.

yes you fold out the maniacs bluffing range, but its unlikely CO is folding at this point since his hand looks like tp/straight draws/and fds, and the turn could have improved his equity for a decent portion of his range.

Oops, I've been overlooking those hands the entire time.

I agree it's never a fold. My motivation for this thread was to determine if I made a mistake by not stacking off.

You have options that are not checking on the turn. Looks a quite attractive one too imo

I think many people should read the pre-flop part in this post and read it over and over. The points made apply to just about any pre-flop decision you'll ever make.

Too many people will look down at AK, correctly assume they are ahead of both ranges and 3-bet in order to balance their squeezing range. Like he said this is certainly a great squeeze spot so why do it with hands that can play for stacks depending on the flop? Do it with garbage.

Folding is pretty awful pre-flop.


That said, I have to echo the notion to raise on the turn. OP, I wouldn't recommend building a huge pot OTF with just top pair good kicker, even on such a wet board. You will be getting it in too often with not enough equity to be profitable on later streets. KQ would have raised at some point so raising the turn for value is the optimal play.

"Flop: Good call, you probably have the best hand, but a raise just blows out worse, and you want MP to stay the aggressor and keep printing monies for your hand."

This point highlights my thinking on the flop here, no real value in raising until you make the obvious best hand on the turn.

b/c so much of his range is bluffs and awkward draws, e.g 46/68/JT straight draws, I don't really like the turn bomb line that many people suggest here. Mainly b/c it misses out on all of his river bluffs; which is so much of a tiltmaniacs range that its -EV to miss out on that joy. That just leaves us with the question of what to do on the river.

I don't think either stacking off or playing it safe is going to be a clear winner one way or another without some deep understanding of villains thinking/thought process (which we lack).


As a minor detail, yeah, he really stinks if he's only overbetting his nutty hands otr; much harder to deal with a villain who will slight overbet his whole range, as it makes playing the entire hand against a guy like this harder... Hands like top 2 are giftwrapped for a maniac to overbet and make some good dinero.

Nice hand, nice thread.