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Old 01-12-2018, 03:46 PM   #1
Keaton
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2/5 Line Check: Top 2 on Wet Board

2/5 at the Bellagio

I'll include the table talk throughout this hand. Whether or not it's relevant I don't know, but it's part of the hand either way, so I'll include it.

Villain: Just sat down 15 minutes earlier, seemed to come from a different table since he sat with around $350 in chips. He didn't top off, but doubled up quickly when he jammed the turn with the nuts (flopped top set of jacks). No real reads, though he appears to be a reg, as when he sat a cocktail waitress recognized him and asked where he had been, and he said he plays at the Wynn now. He is on my direct left and started a conversation with me as soon as he sat, and we have been chatting and bantering back and forth. He is about 55 with an accent (my guess is Greek), outgoing, friendly, likable, loud, seems good for the game and likely not a nit, though given the short time frame I'm essentially readless. Sitting on around $700.

Hero: Assume Villain has no read on me. I cover.

On to the hand:

Folds around to me in the small blind, I ask Villain if he chops, he says let's play. I look down at KcJc and raise to $20. Villain jokingly says, "I said let's play, you didn't have to raise" and I respond that my hand is good and I have to raise. He looks at his cards, says his hand is good too and makes the call.

Pot $40
Flop KhJh10s

As soon as the flop hits, Villain says in a higher voice - which I read as genuine excitement - "now look at that flop". He then comments that I shouldn't bet, because he might raise me.

Sure enough, I bet $20 and Villain snap raises to $60. I call.

Pot $160
Turn comes a 10d, so the board reads:
KhJh10s10d

I check, Villain snap bets $200. I ask why so much, he pauses and says "because I know you're going to call".

Hero?

Thoughts on pre-flop and flop action are welcome as well.
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Old 01-12-2018, 04:19 PM   #2
Joey913
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Re: 2/5 Line Check: Top 2 on Wet Board

Played well up to now.

Grunch. There is not a whole lot in is value range that we are beating. I suppose KQ and a slowly played AK. AThh and QThh got there on the turn. His table talk also seems strong. I don't think I'm good enough to fold live at the table, but dispassionately sitting here I think it's a fold.

Maybe this is a naked A-high flush draw, but I'm just not seeing it.

Last edited by Joey913; 01-12-2018 at 04:34 PM.
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Old 01-12-2018, 04:27 PM   #3
Playbig2000
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Re: 2/5 Line Check: Top 2 on Wet Board

anytime someone decides not to chop, they likely have a great hand unless there's a jackpot that's very high, but he would have qualified your hand as well by asking you if you can play. Otherwise, people would just say "I never chop". When they say "Let's play", they have a hand they would hate to chop. I would prob just call/fold pre, just to see if I was right then never chop with him again.

as played, you already told him you have a good hand, and it didn't seem to phase him so he prob has KK Maybe TT since he flatted pre. Just like he said, he knows you won't fold so why shouldn't he go for max value?
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Old 01-12-2018, 04:40 PM   #4
shorn7
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Re: 2/5 Line Check: Top 2 on Wet Board

Yeah it sucks and all, but this might be a good time to potentially lay down the best hand. He seems committed to follow through on the river with a shove so your decision on turn if actually for $620 and not $200. And as Joey pointed out, we don't beat really any of his value range.

Yu might say something like "Ok, Ok your JTs is good I fold" when you muck and maybe he shows you.
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Old 01-12-2018, 04:40 PM   #5
Nogyong
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Re: 2/5 Line Check: Top 2 on Wet Board

All streets were played well so far.

As played, hero:

- says something cool
- calls
- prays for no heart, A, 9 or Q and for villain to bet 260 or less into 520 on the river.

ProPokerTools Hold'em Simulation
1,716 trials (Exhaustive)
board: KJTT
Hand Pot equity Wins Ties
KcJc41.78% 621192
AK,AQ,JJ,TT,KJ,QhTh,KTs,JTs,Ah9h,Ah8h,Ah7h,Ah6h,Ah5h,Ah4h,Ah3h,Ah2h58.22% 903192

He must have more random air than the above...
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Old 01-12-2018, 04:41 PM   #6
shorn7
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Re: 2/5 Line Check: Top 2 on Wet Board

Quote:
Originally Posted by Playbig2000 View Post
anytime someone decides not to chop, they likely have a great hand unless there's a jackpot that's very high, but he would have qualified your hand as well by asking you if you can play. Otherwise, people would just say "I never chop". When they say "Let's play", they have a hand they would hate to chop. I would prob just call/fold pre, just to see if I was right then never chop with him again.

as played, you already told him you have a good hand, and it didn't seem to phase him so he prob has KK Maybe TT since he flatted pre. Just like he said, he knows you won't fold so why shouldn't he go for max value?
This may be true but he said V didn't look until after he raised.
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Old 01-12-2018, 07:23 PM   #7
Playbig2000
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Re: 2/5 Line Check: Top 2 on Wet Board

Quote:
Originally Posted by shorn7 View Post
This may be true but he said V didn't look until after he raised.
he didn't specifically say he never looked at his cards, he might have looked as soon as he got them then looked again after hero bet. Either way, he did eventually look and still took the line that he took. Too bad we don't have any reads on him. The polarized bet seems to look like it's leaning more towards value.
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Old 01-12-2018, 08:40 PM   #8
johnnyBuz
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Re: 2/5 Line Check: Top 2 on Wet Board

I would bet more on the flop - close to pot.

Turn is just a really bad card and I'm x/f here to this sizing and not thinking any more about it.
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Old 01-12-2018, 08:49 PM   #9
ES2
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Re: 2/5 Line Check: Top 2 on Wet Board

Quote:
Originally Posted by Playbig2000 View Post
I would prob just call/fold pre, just to see if I was right then never chop with him again.
In Vegas, chopping selectively is widely seen as on par with distributing child pornography. So, my guess is this guy (a frequent player) just never chops.

If he does chop selectively, I'd just reciprocate that with him. I'm not going to pay a 20% rake on all of the money that isn't mine, OOP just to prove a point. But if it comes up much, what I'd really do is switch tables because it's probably a bad game and you have this little, annoying element making it even worse.

Anyway, I think this kind of table talk with this kind of action is rarely a bluff.
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Old 01-12-2018, 08:51 PM   #10
Javanewt
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Re: 2/5 Line Check: Top 2 on Wet Board

Is there a high hand or bad beat? Is this the first chop option?

Bet more on flop. As played, he's either nutted or you are way ahead. I'd need some read at the table, but I'd probably go for it here. I'd either call to keep him in or just raise now and make him pay for a draw.

However, I have no problem with a fold. I honestly think we are good here, but I'm not sitting next to him.
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Old 01-12-2018, 09:54 PM   #11
BackDoorFlush
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Re: 2/5 Line Check: Top 2 on Wet Board

Quote:
Originally Posted by Playbig2000 View Post
anytime someone decides not to chop, they likely have a great hand unless there's a jackpot that's very high, but he would have qualified your hand as well by asking you if you can play. Otherwise, people would just say "I never chop". When they say "Let's play", they have a hand they would hate to chop. I would prob just call/fold pre, just to see if I was right then never chop with him again.
My thoughts exactly.

As played, x/f turn. This guy has some kind of monster hand.
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Old 01-13-2018, 01:42 AM   #12
Keaton
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Re: 2/5 Line Check: Top 2 on Wet Board

There is no high hand or bad beat. This is the first chop option, and while I can't give 100% confirmation that villain did not look at his cards beforehand, my genuine belief was that he had not looked before he said "let's play" and that he simply doesn't ever chop.
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Old 01-13-2018, 03:50 AM   #13
Chicagodude
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Re: 2/5 Line Check: Top 2 on Wet Board

I fold. AQ is a real possibility and any 10 has you killed.
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Old 01-13-2018, 06:26 AM   #14
Nogyong
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Re: 2/5 Line Check: Top 2 on Wet Board

While I'm not all that comfortable with the turn spot, I think the turn it is still too early to fold. There is still too much chance that this is SB vs BB "I won't chop" deep stack violence and in any case we have significant blockers!

Unless he has exactly TT or JJ (only two combos) he has definitely played this hand funky at some point. JT and KT are a bit risky to raise on the flop when AQ got there, I largely discount KK (he would have had more of a decision preflop) and its not like he just went from having broadway on the flop to having a boat on the turn.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shorn7 View Post
He seems committed to follow through on the river with a shove so your decision on turn if actually for $620 and not $200.
I think that there will often be a proportion of his hands that he will slow down with on the river (either check back or bet half pot or less). I think that range might look something like this:

AK,AQ,KQ,KJ,QhTh,Ah9h,Ah8h,Ah7h,Ah6h,Ah5h,Ah4h,Ah3 h,Ah2h

We still don't know how much of a baller this guy is and in my experience it's just not that easy for them to bluff jam the river without a boat.
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