[2/5] KK on gross flop versus nit - Live Low-stakes No Limit Poker Forum

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[2/5] KK on gross flop versus nit

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07-23-2019 , 11:23 PM

Ranma4703

veteran

Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 3,099

Villain has played maybe two hands in the first 90 minutes the table has been open. We're $1380 effective, I was away from the table when he won his extra chips.

Straddle is on, two loose / bad players limp to me, I raise to $65 with K

in HJ, he calls in the CO, and everyone else folds

Flop: 6

($150)
I check, he bets $65, I call

Turn: Q

($280)
I check, he bets $250, I... ($1000 behind)

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07-23-2019 , 11:39 PM

Amanaplan

acanalpanamA

Join Date: Jan 2015 Posts: 5,628

Smaller pre. I'd ck fold turn with a lot of hands when someone this quiet puts 250 in.

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07-24-2019 , 12:11 AM

QuantumSurfer

old hand

Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 1,987

+1 to smaller pre. I'd still go for a bet/fold line up to 3 streets with smaller sizings. A nit might put in less value than he'd call down with. As played... I don't hate either option. If I had no postflop reads, I think call turn and hope for a checked river seems best. 90 min feels like a while, but we're not seeing enough hands to really peg this guy as an absolute nut peddler. He could still have pair+OE or something odd like QT/J. We're close enough to the BE point that I wouldn't sweat this decision.

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07-24-2019 , 12:39 AM

ashtona

centurion

Join Date: Jun 2019 Posts: 150

Im pretty lost here as well, but I think I lean towards a fold for the following reasons:

-OOP
-Ton of money left behind and we're almost never improving on rivers
-We never have the nuts (JT) here whereas V can
-V's bet is extremely polarizing which means we're almost always facing another barrel on the river. Even the hands he checks back can be ahead of us e.g. 98cc 98ss
-I feel V is incentivized to X back this turn with a lot of hands that we're beating e.g. QJs QTs T9s A9s J9s
-Initial read is that V is tight and thus less likely to be spewing with a one pair hand that should be checking

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07-24-2019 , 12:51 AM

JeffChang

centurion

Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 170

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ranma4703

in HJ, he calls in the CO, and everyone else folds

Flop: 6

($150)
I check, he bets $65, I call

Turn: Q

($280)
I check, he bets $250, I... ($1000 behind)

Preflop sizing is fine. X/C flop fine. C/F river. That bet size ramped up hard. If he didn’t have you beat on flop he has you on turn.

A nit doesn’t just flat $65 with nothing which it why the sizing is why it probably saved you money here.

Last edited by JeffChang; 07-24-2019 at 12:58 AM.

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07-24-2019 , 09:41 AM

Ranma4703

veteran

Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 3,099

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amanaplan

Smaller pre. I'd ck fold turn with a lot of hands when someone this quiet puts 250 in.

I actually sized down pre, I am very surprised both limpers folded. Game was extremely loose.

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07-24-2019 , 10:42 AM

c0rnBr34d

old hand

Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 1,257

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amanaplan

Smaller pre. I'd ck fold turn with a lot of hands when someone this quiet puts 250 in.

With the straddle on and two limpers what's our sizing? I kind of like $60ish here.

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07-24-2019 , 11:03 AM

kf98

newbie

Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 22

is there a reason why you did not bet the flop? at least give him a chance to fold a hand like TT, JJ, or AKs. even if v has 77 and is playing the OESD, your double check may cause him to put you on a whiffed AK. some people are more likely to call big raises in position with a straddle on because they are more likely to think it's a blinds steal.

otherwise, the pre doesn't bother me. the x/c i am more leery, because what are you calling for, a K? you're either behind or you're not, and if you call the turn, you have to another big decision on the river as well, unless it's an obvious scare card. but what do you do if the river is, say, a black 3?

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07-24-2019 , 11:09 AM

wewa925

adept

Join Date: Feb 2013 Posts: 1,039

lol @ smaller pre. as played, call down.

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07-24-2019 , 12:49 PM

#10

Gorgalosk

grinder

Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 450

:grunch:

I think the hand is played pretty well if you folded turn.

I like x/c flop because this texture is much more favorable to a tight player's HJ calling range than Hero's opening range and it's good to have some strong hands in your flop checking range.

the V's flop bet could mean any number of things so i think a call is good.

Once V bombs the crap out of a turn card that should theoretically be better for you, I'm done. I guess sometimes V has like AQ, but overall he's just so unlikely to bomb the pot like that with a medium strength hand or anything you beat.

If he went half pot again, I can probably find a call fwiw.

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07-24-2019 , 02:11 PM

#11

ilMaKeUfAmOuS

newbie

Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ranma4703

in HJ, he calls in the CO, and everyone else folds

Flop: 6

($150)
I check, he bets $65, I call

Turn: Q

($280)
I check, he bets $250, I... ($1000 behind)

Why are we not betting/check raising flop

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07-24-2019 , 02:22 PM

#12

Amanaplan

acanalpanamA

Join Date: Jan 2015 Posts: 5,628

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ranma4703

I actually sized down pre, I am very surprised both limpers folded. Game was extremely loose.

Quote:

Originally Posted by c0rnBr34d

With the straddle on and two limpers what's our sizing? I kind of like $60ish here.

Didn't see 'straddle on'. Looked for it too when I saw $65. QuantumSurfer didn't see it either more than likely.

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07-24-2019 , 02:42 PM

#13

Amanaplan

acanalpanamA

Join Date: Jan 2015 Posts: 5,628

The turn is a fold. It's even less likely now that the player who has played 2 hands in 90 minutes is waiting to get his stack in lighter than KK in the straddled pot in a loose game. Granted we cannot be sure we are owning him, but it's an adjustment I feel comfortable making given the dynamics here.

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07-24-2019 , 02:44 PM

#14

Nippleman

grinder

Join Date: Mar 2017 Posts: 660

Sigh fold. You might be ahead enough of the time range wise to justify a call, but I feel like there are better hills to die on (and make money). Give him his credit, and thank him for betting so much.

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07-24-2019 , 02:47 PM

#15

QuantumSurfer

old hand

Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 1,987

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amanaplan

Didn't see 'straddle on'. Looked for it too when I saw $65. QuantumSurfer didn't see it either more than likely.

No, I saw it. I don't think $65 is bad if that sizing gets us action though. My player pool consistently opens 3-3.5x + 1bb for each limper, so I usually end up going $50-55 here, but I really don't wanna nit-pick. If going $65 doesn't drive anyone out, I'm all for it. I only harped on it b/c it differs from my games.

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07-24-2019 , 02:56 PM

#16

Amanaplan

acanalpanamA

Join Date: Jan 2015 Posts: 5,628

Quote:

Originally Posted by QuantumSurfer

Word. I actually like it with the limper descriptions + stacks and can't really go wrong w upsizing against spews.

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07-24-2019 , 03:39 PM

#17

ilMaKeUfAmOuS

newbie

Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 38

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilMaKeUfAmOuS

Why are we not betting/check raising flop

how are we playing aces in this spot?

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07-24-2019 , 05:19 PM

#18

Minatorr

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Oct 2016 Posts: 5,235

Yeah i aint folding yet, flop x is more than fine

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07-24-2019 , 08:29 PM

#19

JeffChang

centurion

Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 170

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilMaKeUfAmOuS

how are we playing aces in this spot?

Aces is different because we’d block nit from having it.

Quote

07-24-2019 , 08:33 PM

#20

JeffChang

centurion

Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 170

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilMaKeUfAmOuS

how are we playing aces in this spot?

Aces is different because we block nit from having it. We are putting nit in a very narrow range that can cold call $65.

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07-24-2019 , 09:00 PM

#21

ilMaKeUfAmOuS

newbie

Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 38

Quote:

Originally Posted by JeffChang

Aces is different because we block nit from having it. We are putting nit in a very narrow range that can cold call $65.

so what's the point of the thread if you're only putting them on Aces if he calls Doesn't really explain your flop call though you’re hoping for two outer. It’s a horrible way to play it.
If you’re putting him on aces you should’ve bet the flop otherwise I don’t know what to do it’s a bad why to play it.

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07-24-2019 , 09:12 PM

#22

ashtona

centurion

Join Date: Jun 2019 Posts: 150

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gorgalosk

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07-24-2019 , 09:35 PM

#23

Joey913

old hand

Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 1,300

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilMaKeUfAmOuS

Why are we not betting/check raising flop

C/R this flop is atrocious against a nondrooler

Quote

07-24-2019 , 11:00 PM

#24

KID777777

adept

Join Date: May 2018 Posts: 869

I understand range wise we can check flop but this nit is not going to bluff/value raise worse than KK. I'd rather b/f all the way

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07-25-2019 , 07:36 AM

#25

MikeStarr

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jan 2016 Posts: 7,962

Against tough players who could bluff raise this scary flop, and/or raise pair and draw hands, then Id check the flop. Against a nit I think betting the flop smallish is best. A nit is heavily weighted towards pocket pairs when he calls $65 preflop and its unlikely hes going to raise the flop without a set. Hes going to try to call down and get to showdown with TT-QQ and probably AA as well.

As played, the turn is an easy fold for me.

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