2/5 Game at Aria

Hero is UTG with about $3300
Villain 1 is on the button with ~$900
Villain 2 is on the SB with ~2000

Hero has been playing very tight for many hours after building a stack to $2500 .. Hero is pretty tired, at the end of a 11 hr session.

Villain 2 has been playing tight, virtually no 3 raises in the last 5 hours.

Action.

Hero has KK UTG and limps in. (part of it is that a raise may not get any callers due to image -- about 30 minutes early hero's AA got no callers for early raise). -- plan is to re-raise a raises to isolate.

A few other people limp in, then

Villain 1 (button) - raises to $25
Villain 2 (small blind) - 3 bets to $115

I can't fold KK in this spot yet, i thought i had 2 choices, call and possibly entice other people to call .. (somehow having one early caller in a 3 bet pot, makes other folks call in this game)... -- or raise.

In my mind raising does define my hand, but also helps me define villain 2's hand.

Hero - raises to $330.

Comments on sizing ?

And finally -- if villain re-raises, is there any way to find a call? or is it basically always a fold if villain 5-bets?

If you're only 4-betting to 330 I don't think you can fold to a 5bet. If your plan is to fold to a 5bet I'd size up to around 420. I don't play 400+bb deep enough to know how correct it is to fold KK to a 5! so someone else will have to say if it's right to fold.

$330 is just enough in this situation unless the table is super loose and deep. Another $215 is enough V2 can't get getting odds to continue unless a couple more villains come along and the action should shut them out.

Unless there is some weird dynamic going on fold to a 5 bet. His 3 bet OOP is already strong and your limp/4 bet is basically pinning your range at AA/KK.

4-bet seems very bad against this tight a villain, you're turning your hand into a bluff, essentially. Would def be folding to a 5.

Turning his hand into a bluff, to bluff out what exactly?..AA?

V1 doesn't look very strong with the small raise over limpers, and lthough V2 is described as tight, V2 could easily be 3betting 99+, AK, AQ because those hands suck to call and let all the limpers come along. In fact, the only sensible way to play 99+, AK, AQ in this spot for V2 is to 3b. Against this range I definitely support a 4b. We are the ones more likely to have AA than V2, our limp/4b looks so strong I think V2 is in set-mine mode if he continues.

4 bet fold seems right. Im only making it like 275 and folding to a 5 bet. Just be warned that AA is likely to flat a decent amount, and just about every other hand should fold, so Im treading very carefully if flatted.

Wouldn't you expect QQ-99 to flat and setmine?

Between your tight image and villains tight image, four betting folds out worse and allows villain the option to 5 bet and put you in a tough spot.

Your limp four betting screams AA, KK minimum.

Call the three bet and play accordingly.

As played, fold to a five bet.

4b!/fold seems fine here.

My thought process on the 4-bet was that the raise to $25 from the button was suspect, given that there was about 3 limpers already. -- it seems like a weak raise? --

I thought that Villain 2 (SB) was the kind of player (seemed very competent to me), that could 3-bet with more than just AA,KK -- he'd probably do it with AK, and QQ, JJ .. probably not an isolation move since he's out of position after the flop.

Finally we're so deep that I want to further define his hand, one thing i want to avoid is loosing 300 - 400 bb AA vs KK.

There is a good argument for flatting the 3b .. but that means we're going to see the flop probably 3 way if not more. -- i disliked the idea of folding to a $200 bet on the flop when most of the time i'm going to beat the flop.

-- i finally settled on a ~$215 raise that would push out all other players (including the button) .. villain 2 is going to flat alot of the time, if he flats i am most likely up against AA, KK, QQ .. -- maybe other pairs .. but this villain did not seem that loose.

-- if he raises, then i thought i would have to give him credit for AA.

There is also a chance that this villain could put me on this thought process and force me to fold pre by putting in the 5b!.

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Here is what villain did:

You cannot play any worse than this especially in this game. Inexcusable open limp even if you haven’t played a hand this month, make it 15-20. After that every other though you had is basically a stupid level and your 4b sizing is horrendous. You can’t beat this game this way.

Fold, rack up.

A limp re-raise is only good when a table is overly aggressive with loose players. For a tight game just open raise.

If you open raised, btn re raised and now other villian 4 bets its no brainer. Now in this wierd spot you made for yourself its clouding your judgement.

I don't like the open limp.

As played I like a call here. What do you do if you get shoved on? do you feel comfortable stacking off this deep?

I think a call under reps our hand as well. If an Ace comes we can easily get away from the hand too being this deep.

These things are incompatible. You're making a raise that you only expect to get action on when crushed. That is the textbook definition of turning your hand into a bluff.

Never raise for information. If you don't want to lose 3-400 bb with AA v KK, don't put in 3-400 bb postflop.

Don't fold, then. You're avoiding calling a flop bet by instead putting the money in preflop, to be taken down by the hand by far most likely to have us in trouble postflop. In doing so you're passing up the opportunity to flop a set vs AA, which will be a huge earner when it happens.

I understand that preflop is a bit different to postflop and that there's more value in equity denial when our opponents get to see three community cards rather than one. But in this instance it's not like the other players are coming in for free, they have to pay a hefty threebet to play. KK is actually a fine hand to see a multiway flop with here - it's pretty unlikely to get a troublesome flop (unlike, say, JJ) and it can flop sets against AA and overset people, both of which are enormously valuable when deep.

I feel like people wanting to 4bet KK has more to do with an emotional dislike of risking losing with the hand than it does to do with poker. Try to win money, not pots.

I don’t think you taking it down pre once is enough for you to conclude people are going to play that tight against your opens. If everyone is folding to your opens shouldn’t you be stealing he blinds and collecting a free $8? Why are you playing so tight still?

If you have a tight image limp reraising looks nutted as hell and I’m snap folding AK or JJ pre. Unless your opponent is a complete drooler you can probably 4 bet and fold because 5 betting you without aces seems suicidal.

flat the 3

Here's another way to look at this: everyone just saw Hero open from EP 30 min ago and it folded around. If Hero opens from EP again now, opponents are a bit less likely to give him credit for AA/KK.

I much prefer to open here, given how deep we are and given how face up it looks when we limp/reraise from UTG. Open to $20.

As played, I'm definitely in a 4bet/fold mindset, although I prefer to size smaller like $275. Our sizing seems a little too big, given that we have position over the 3bettor, although it's not awful.

Facing the min raise is actually really interesting. I like villain's decision to go for a tiny 5bet as opposed to a much bigger 5bet, since he can potentially balance this out with some AKo (bluffs) and some AA (value).

Against a normal 5bet, I'm happy to fold. Against this min 5bet, I'm really not loving it, but I still lean towards folding. Note that if you are going to flat this 5bet, then you need to be flatting with some AA too, for balance.

Open pre and definitely not a fan of turning 2nd nuts into a bluff, so call instead of raising.

LOL at the people saying that 4betting KK is a bluff.

4betting A3s is a bluff. 4betting JJ or AQo is thin value. 4betting KK is just fat value. There's nothing bluffy about it at all.

To say that 4betting KK is a bluff is to say that villain always folds QQ and AKs against a 4bet, which is complete rubbish.

I said "should" fold, not will fold. My point was that *if* we 4-bet and get called, we have to keep AA in his range, and not just fist-pump gii on an 8 high board. I'm not a fan of flatting KK here and giving them a free shot at drawing out on us. I'm raising to deny V the odds to try and draw out on our KK, rather than calling and giving him a free look at it. Although I'm open to the option that flatting keeps his range wider and allows us to extract more value postflop when we have him beat than we lose when he has AA or outdraws us. It's a complex spot that is highly dependent on 3-betting ranges, 4-bet calling ranges, and postflop play. I wouldn't mind seeing some analysis backing up the optimal play, but it's a spot that would take some serious number crunching.

Thanks everyone for the feedback ..

I totally agree that limping was mistake #1 .. -- (i know better than to make this mistake, i think that playing for 11 hours was affecting me)

And I agree that calling the 3bet and playing in position would have been a better play.

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As played - i did fold to the villain 5-bet.

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