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Old 04-21-2019, 09:10 AM   #1
KID777777
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2/5 JTss line check

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V (500) typical loose/passive player, nothing too OOL

Open 20 in EP with JT V flats BB hu

Flop KJ8 40
X,x

Turn 9 40
X, H 25, V calls

River 7 90
X, H 100, V r 250, H jams

I checked flop with rainbow board and 2nd pair looking to get value ott/otr

Turn could of sized up, but I obv expect any pair/draw to call

River brings one liner to straight and backdoor flush, is it too much of an overplay to 3b river here??

Line check?
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Old 04-21-2019, 09:30 AM   #2
Garick
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Re: 2/5 JTss line check

Looks fine until river. I think the re-raise OTR is a bit much with the third nuts. Typical LP pretty much always has a flush here, and since the only ones you beat are 8-high and even those require a gapper, I doubt he calls with much you beat. Meanwhile, he has the nut-flush a lot. Just call the river raise, imo, and it is a sigh-call.
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Old 04-21-2019, 10:00 AM   #3
persianshark
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Re: 2/5 JTss line check

Turn bet sizing should be bigger, near put size bet on the turn is best. river is definitely a call, not an all in.
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Old 04-21-2019, 11:58 AM   #4
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Re: 2/5 JTss line check

I'd cbet flop ip with mid pair+potential BD equity.

River - when a > PSB is X/R by a recreational player, I doubt our hand is good. Fold.
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Old 04-21-2019, 12:55 PM   #5
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Re: 2/5 JTss line check

Quote:
Originally Posted by KID777777 View Post

I checked flop with rainbow board and 2nd pair looking to get value ott/otr


Line check?
What does this even mean? Is this player bad enough to call 2 streets with less than second pair and you don't want to fold them out with 3 bullets?

Cbet this flop and getting them to fold is exactly what you want. You also can build a pot for when your dream card (9s) comes on the turn.

AP, loose/passive/doesn't get OOL Villain just check raised you on the river. They have the nuts. If they don't have the nuts then something about your read or this hand is not as described.
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Old 04-21-2019, 02:39 PM   #6
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Re: 2/5 JTss line check

Flop check is fine, there aren't many hands that we need a lot of protection against that we can get protection against. There is an argument for betting for street projection reasons to get AJ/QJ/maybe KT to fold over several streets, but I think I like checking as the default. OTT the bet is fine, pot is too small for you to get blown off your equity. River threebet is definitely spew
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Old 04-21-2019, 03:22 PM   #7
PlusEEV
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Re: 2/5 JTss line check

I don’t understand the river jam. What is its purpose?
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Old 04-21-2019, 03:37 PM   #8
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Re: 2/5 JTss line check

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Originally Posted by Ranma4703 View Post
Flop check is fine, there aren't many hands that we need a lot of protection against that we can get protection against. There is an argument for betting for street projection reasons to get AJ/QJ/maybe KT to fold over several streets, but I think I like checking as the default. OTT the bet is fine, pot is too small for you to get blown off your equity. River threebet is definitely spew
WHAT ???????

how about a C-bet to win the pot right now

as played fold
and stop opening J10 up front if you don't know how to play it
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Old 04-21-2019, 04:19 PM   #9
Ranma4703
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Re: 2/5 JTss line check

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WHAT ???????

how about a C-bet to win the pot right now

as played fold
and stop opening J10 up front if you don't know how to play it
Betting to win the pot is not a reason to bet

We bet to make the pot bigger if we win and we bet to get people to fold their equity.

There aren't many AT hands here, QT/9T are not folding the flop, AQ may or may not fold depending on our sizing / may get 3bet pre, so betting folds a bunch of 2-5 out hands while not folding anything better. We do beat some hands that call our bet, but by checking back we get to bluffcatch vs some hands that we would have just blown out of the pot on the flop.

Play more turns and rivers, people are worse at them and make more mistakes
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Old 04-21-2019, 08:28 PM   #10
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Re: 2/5 JTss line check

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Originally Posted by Ranma4703 View Post
Betting to win the pot is not a reason to bet

There aren't many AT hands here, QT/9T are not folding the flop, AQ may or may not fold depending on our sizing / may get 3bet pre, so betting folds a bunch of 2-5 out hands while not folding anything better. We do beat some hands that call our bet, but by checking back we get to bluffcatch vs some hands that we would have just blown out of the pot on the flop.

Play more turns and rivers, people are worse at them and make more mistakes
We play in categorically different games if this is true for you. At least 50% of my bets are so people will fold. And if Q10/910 never fold this flop you should bet it at an even higher frequency to charge for draws.
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Old 04-21-2019, 08:40 PM   #11
Garick
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Re: 2/5 JTss line check

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At least 50% of my bets are so people will fold.
Hopefully that's to get them to fold out equity and or as a bluff. If you are betting TPTK with the goal of getting TPGK to fold, you are doing it very wrong.
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Old 04-21-2019, 08:53 PM   #12
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Re: 2/5 JTss line check

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Originally Posted by Garick View Post
Hopefully that's to get them to fold out equity and or as a bluff. If you are betting TPTK with the goal of getting TPGK to fold, you are doing it very wrong.
Are we all talking about the same thing here or am I taking crazy pills tonight? He has second pair weak kicker and BD draws. Itís pretty obvious I want to bet the flop and take it down against every hand imaginable.
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Old 04-21-2019, 09:10 PM   #13
Garick
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Re: 2/5 JTss line check

So you want 63o to fold if we bet flop? Why? What about 83o?

Wanting to get something with real equity to fold is fine, wanting things we crush to fold is very bad. It often happens as a by-product, but it should never be a goal.
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Old 04-21-2019, 09:24 PM   #14
MarshMan114
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Re: 2/5 JTss line check

Come on man! I hope this stays light hearted but we are entering into hyperbole now. I stand by my original statement that if 63o and 83o call a preflop raise and go to most turns we play in categorically different games.

In my mind second pair 10s weak kicker has very little showdown value to a preflop raise so taking it down on the flop is awesome. We have lots of back door equity so a call isn’t bad, but winning now is great in my book.
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Old 04-21-2019, 10:06 PM   #15
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Re: 2/5 JTss line check

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Originally Posted by MarshMan114 View Post
Come on man! I hope this stays light hearted but we are entering into hyperbole now. I stand by my original statement that if 63o and 83o call a preflop raise and go to most turns we play in categorically different games.

In my mind second pair 10s weak kicker has very little showdown value to a preflop raise so taking it down on the flop is awesome. We have lots of back door equity so a call isn’t bad, but winning now is great in my book.
Perhaps you’ve been a bit harsh, but I agree with your analysis.

We’re uncapped to a flop that hits our range. I’m not checking if checked to and leveling myself for later streets. So after flop V knows we have no King or set and likely on turn we have some combo draw or we’d check back.

For me the failure to bet this flop really puts H in an uncomfortable spot on later streets.

AP: I’m just sigh calling his raise on river expecting him to show me As8s often, AQs rarely and expecting to beat TT and two-pair combos often enough to justify a call at 3-1. The jam is quite optimistic I fear. That said, it’s not ridiculous because a good Villain might have raised his nutted draws after the delayed C-bet on turn.
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Old 04-21-2019, 11:09 PM   #16
barney big nuts
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Re: 2/5 JTss line check

I'd cbet because a bunch of worse hands will call.
Folding to the river raise is not an option, of course gonna be beat sometimes but He can have 8xss and numerous bluffs.
These passive fishhy weirdos show up with strange **** sometimes and spazz too so zero chance I am ever folding.
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Old 04-23-2019, 12:40 AM   #17
KID777777
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Re: 2/5 JTss line check

Results:

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Old 04-23-2019, 04:59 AM   #18
Badreg2017
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Re: 2/5 JTss line check

Against described villain bet or check on the flop is good. As played just call river.
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