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2/5 JTs: Oh God, how did the pot get this big? 2/5 JTs: Oh God, how did the pot get this big?

04-15-2017 , 08:44 PM
2/5 at my local casino. Game is pretty much all regs, but several of them are losing regs. It plays somewhat LAG, with people not afraid to splash around and very capable of bluffing.

Hero is a 37yo white male, have played with many of these players before but not a huge amount. Earlier I got AK in preflop vs AA and chopped with a wheel. Later I raised a straddled pot to 50, got 5 callers, and dragged a big pot when I oversetted 22 with my 99. Haven't shown down much else and have been very snug for the last hour, hour and a half due to being card dead.

Villain is a young Asian male, a LAG. I suspect he's a losing player, but he's probably nearly breakeven. Knows how to play poker and is capable of bluffs, laydowns, etc, but is undisciplined.

Game is playing pretty deep, I have $1,500ish.

9 handed. A bad, passive reg limps UTG in a straddled pot. I make it $50 with JT from the cutoff. Get 5 callers, including villain OTB. Not every hand is 5 ways to the flop, I should point out. A lot of 2 handed and 3 handed flops.

Flop: J95 ($250)

Checks to me. This isn't really a dream situation, but I bet $150. Only villain calls and has $450 left behind.

Pleasebrickpleasebrickpleasebrick

Turn: 2 ($550)

I jam.

I dunno, maybe this hand is just standard? It feels gross playing a pot this big with TP ten kicker, but at the same time I'm not sure what else I can do at any point, other than not raise pre, but I'm fine with the raise pre I think.
2/5 JTs: Oh God, how did the pot get this big? Quote
04-15-2017 , 08:56 PM
AP, turn is definitely a jam. I can't really think of anything else to do there. That being said, flop bet seems a little steep for top pair-baddish kicker.
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04-15-2017 , 09:17 PM
What would you suggest? It's a wet board so my sizing is larger with all my hands. I don't really want to vary my sizing and size small in this game, it feels like I'm inviting a raise.
2/5 JTs: Oh God, how did the pot get this big? Quote
04-15-2017 , 09:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisV
What would you suggest? It's a wet board so my sizing is larger with all my hands. I don't really want to vary my sizing and size small in this game, it feels like I'm inviting a raise.
Honestly I have mixed feelings about this... Generally when flops are big and multiway, and I have one pair, my objective is not to charge draws the max. Instead I try to get to the turn with some maneuverability while thinning out the field and hopefully sussing out flopped monsters. I guess I've been in your spot too many times where I've stacked off to TPTK or slowplayed sets/two pairs.

Getting raised isn't so bad if you have a good feeling for player types at the table, and you're ok riding the variance train and calling some of the time (probably don't want to call often with T kicker). But in general, I don't feel terrible bet/folding like $115 or even $95 otf - as small as $85 (third pot) otf.

This is just my general strategy. I tend to go smaller on the flop, bigger on the turn, and my river bets vary dramatically based on villain and hero's image and what I'm trying to accomplish.... This is, of course, contrary to twoplustwo advice which always seems to advocate well over half pot on the flop, so who knows.
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04-15-2017 , 10:29 PM
On this SPR, a turn jam seems mandatory. Flop bet is fine. Flush draws aren't getting a direct odds price to see the turn.

I don't understand, however, where five callers come from: it should be four (button, sb, bb, ant UTG), which is consistent with 250 in the pot.
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04-15-2017 , 10:49 PM
Yeah my mistake, should read 4 callers, 5 ways to the flop. There is an additional blind due to the straddle, but one of them folded.
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04-15-2017 , 10:53 PM
Results:

Spoiler:
He tanked for like 10 seconds, said "nice hand" and folded. The bet felt weird because it doesn't really fit into the category of a value bet or bluff, but I guess that's normal when pots get bigger than effective stacks and I'm just trying to protect my equity. It feels like vs a LAG I should be trying to bluffcatch with weak hands, but check seems pretty gross here.
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04-15-2017 , 11:59 PM
Everything looks standard IMO.
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04-16-2017 , 12:16 AM
Looks good.
2/5 JTs: Oh God, how did the pot get this big? Quote
04-16-2017 , 01:01 AM
I think flop bet is terrible
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04-16-2017 , 02:22 AM
Pre is super standard in my book.
Obv we got 1029312098 callers, which stinks, but that'sunexpected according to OP so whatever.
I sort of don't like betting the flop, or checking the flop. But I think a lot of this depends on overall meta you might have with these players.
Against a bunch of unknowns, you're almost never good here when called otf with so many other players in, but if you have an agro FOS image like me, you can value this for stacks easily.

This hand can be good or terrible depending on table dynamics, and while generally it's going to lose money it doesn't mean that it is a bad play in the right circumstances.
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04-16-2017 , 03:07 AM
On second thought I'm not so sure about that bet on the flop.
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04-16-2017 , 03:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cicakman
I think flop bet is terrible

Yeah.. you can never be too careful. Someone might have QJ.
2/5 JTs: Oh God, how did the pot get this big? Quote
04-16-2017 , 03:53 AM
With stack sizes seems like checking flop might be better then betting flop.

But that would be depndent on there being an aggro good enough player in front right?

If villains are more fit and fold or passive types betting is better?
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04-16-2017 , 09:42 AM
Looks good to me.

Turn is a massively profitable spot if we can be fairly sure he will raise his 2p and sets on the flop. It literally dies not matter if he calls to draw or folds ott, you make $$$ either way.
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04-16-2017 , 10:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redskins 47
Yeah.. you can never be too careful. Someone might have QJ.
Correct
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04-16-2017 , 03:32 PM
Looks fine, i'd only call the turn jam with AJ+ so you probably do fold out QJ and KJ and everything with a lot of equity.
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04-16-2017 , 06:35 PM
I don't know, it seems like you should be checking the flop or turn, probably the flop if we don't want to play a big pot. I think he probably raises his sets and combo draws on the flop, so that eliminates quite a few flush draws on the flop. As played I think you get called w/ KJ or better and almost never by anything worse.
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04-16-2017 , 08:27 PM
50 seems too big pre in a laggy reggy deep game. 40 pre over a limp. Check this flop.
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04-16-2017 , 08:49 PM
(I didn't see spoiler)
Yeah this is just a bad spot. You played it fine IMHO. We just want to avoid big pots w/TP med kicker but sometimes **** happens. I guess villian could have AJ KJ QJ and just not find a fold, it happens.

Hindsight is 20/20 of course but if you want to avoid spots like this drop the 3bet w/JTs. Maybe especially after you 3bet a straddle earlier and got 5 handed with your 99. Tho you know this game you play in better than us so I'm certainly not criticizing, just saying to keep pot size under control w/medium holdings play smaller preflop.
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04-16-2017 , 10:29 PM
Hand seems standard. I may size down the flop to $100-125.

This is kinda just what happens when you choose to raise a straddle 4x + 1 with a medium SC. You made your bed and now you lie in it (not that there's anything wrong with that).
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04-16-2017 , 11:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by iraisetoomuch
Pre is super standard in my book...

Against a bunch of unknowns, you're almost never good here when called otf with so many other players in, but if you have an agro FOS image like me, you can value this for stacks easily.
It really isn't standard to start off by making stacks shallower, particularly with this part of our range, particularly in a game like this. It also isn't standard to continue doing so by pounding flop against 4 wide open ranges on a super dynamic board with a static hand. No matter what your image, looking to gii for "value" with TPWK in this game is more than just thin/borders on spew.
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04-17-2017 , 10:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amanaplan
It really isn't standard to start off by making stacks shallower, particularly with this part of our range, particularly in a game like this. It also isn't standard to continue doing so by pounding flop against 4 wide open ranges on a super dynamic board with a static hand. No matter what your image, looking to gii for "value" with TPWK in this game is more than just thin/borders on spew.
Nothing in the OP suggests that we won't take it down a decent portion of the time with our open here from LP. So I think opening JTs here is fine. We don't know that we are going to get 4 callers, and in fact we think that we won't. Since he says that most flops go heads up or 3 ways to the flop.

And I disagree.
I regularly gii in here for 2x pot and I'm up against hands like A9s (non spades) J8, T9, 98 and other crap. Granted sometimes I'm against solid drawing hands, or AJ, KJ, QQ+, but it all balances out.

However most people aren't me, and won't get called down here with T9/98, so it's a bad play. Hence the

Quote:
Originally Posted by iraisetoomuch
This hand can be good or terrible depending on table dynamics, and while generally it's going to lose money it doesn't mean that it is a bad play in the right circumstances.
portion of my post that you left out.
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04-17-2017 , 10:26 AM
Only comment is the flop ... Betting builds pot with a marginal hand, multi-way.

I'd likely check/evaluate. After a peak at the V, and sensing weakness, I might go $130. Otherwise check.
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04-17-2017 , 01:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisV
.

Game is playing pretty deep, I have $1,500ish.

9 handed. A bad, passive reg limps UTG in a straddled pot. I make it $50 with JT from the cutoff. Get 5 callers, including villain OTB. Not every hand is 5 ways to the flop, I should point out. A lot of 2 handed and 3 handed flops.
I prefer an over-straddle (or what-ever you call an over-limp in a straddled pot). The $50 pre turns the hand into a bluff. This is especially true if most of the players are sitting with $500-800 than if all have > $1K and the OP comment "Game is playing pretty deep" could mean either of these.

The over-limp give you more maneuvering room if you think you may get multiple callers resulting in low-ish SPRs.
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