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2/5 JTs Flopped Two Pair Facing Big Lead

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03-30-2021 , 12:43 PM

sixsevenoff

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Jul 2017 Posts: 5,411

2/5, 7 handed, $500 effective with BB, $1k effective with BTN. BB is a complete unknown who just sat down, BTN is a loose passive fish.

OTTH

Hero opens HJ $20 J

, BTN calls, BB calls.

Flop ($62): J

. BB leads $60. Hero? Donking is almost always top pair or a draw, so I do expect BB to call here very frequently when raised. I also see a problem with calling in that an over may kill our hand or our action, and a 7, 8, or 9 may kill our hand. On the other hand, just calling could potentially bring in the BTN, and if we call and he slows down the turn, the SPR is low enough to play for stacks by the river.

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03-30-2021 , 05:53 PM

JayKon

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 4,444

I would stall, trying to get a read on the Btn and BB. That said, I would be contemplating a raise to $180. If the Btn calls, reevaluate on the turn. If the BB shoves, I fold. If the BB calls and the Btn folds ... and I like (or don't hate) the turn, shove.

Note that I get pretty good reads and play an exploitive game, not GTO.

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03-30-2021 , 08:24 PM

Colombo

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 4,748

Call. You want the BTN tagging along. Generally in multiway spots when you are in the middle position, you want to be doing a lot of calling with your nutty hands. Your hand doesn't need a ton of protection on this board either. If there was a flush draw I would raise.

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03-31-2021 , 05:53 AM

OmahaDonk

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 4,932

I would raise looking to gii on every turn. Knocking the button out is good, we don’t want to go 3 ways

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03-31-2021 , 01:29 PM

BlueSpade84

journeyman

Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 330

Quote:

Originally Posted by JayKon

I would stall, trying to get a read on the Btn and BB. That said, I would be contemplating a raise to $180. If the Btn calls, reevaluate on the turn. If the BB shoves, I fold. If the BB calls and the Btn folds ... and I like (or don't hate) the turn, shove.

Note that I get pretty good reads and play an exploitive game, not GTO.

Are you suggesting folding top two to a donk lead who jams 3-bet jams the flop here? We lose to exactly two combos of JJ, TT, and 3 combos of 55.

100% I am never folding this hand at any point. Calling is fine but increases variance. I'm cool with a raise to $150 and jamming all turns.

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03-31-2021 , 01:37 PM

hydra564

enthusiast

Join Date: Jun 2020 Posts: 82

I think your decision should be highly player dependent, if you think the BU squeezes or overcalls a lot then calling becomes more attractive. If you think BB donks a polar range consisting of mostly nuttish hands and air then the correct theoretical exploit is to call more, if he's donking more stuff like QJ then you should lean towards raising small.

I don't think calling would be that bad either because the SPR is low enough that you can easily get stacks in by betting $100-$120 if BB checks turn, then jamming river, so you don't necessarily need to raise.

Against the fish probably just trap flop

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03-31-2021 , 01:38 PM

sixsevenoff

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Jul 2017 Posts: 5,411

I don't understand raising and then folding to a 3 bet

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04-01-2021 , 09:58 AM

acescracked84

old hand

Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 1,615

I don't generally slowplay but this seems like a good spot to do it. Even if he's donking top pair your best course of action is probably to just let him keep betting and not scare him. There aren't a lot of bad turns , it's low spr if you call anyways and you give the button a chance to do something which is fine.

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04-01-2021 , 01:11 PM

JayKon

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 4,444

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlueSpade84

That's not what I said.

On the flop, if the villain shoves to Hero's raise ... fold. Why? Because that is a made hand. In this case, almost always a set.

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04-03-2021 , 12:29 PM

#10

proBono

grinder

Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 473

Raise this 100% of the time. BTN is way too wide to be happy to keep him in here with this SPR.

I raise to $140ish and GII vs BB on every turn. If BTN repops, I would fold (if he is not know to spaz). If BTN calls, I am plying for stacks with him on brick turns (a 6 or lower turn).

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04-03-2021 , 03:45 PM

#11

Trixie2

grinder

Join Date: Jan 2017 Posts: 475

Raise to 150, get it heads up. GII on turn.

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04-03-2021 , 11:51 PM

#12

BlueSpade84

journeyman

Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 330

Quote:

Originally Posted by JayKon

That's not what I said.

On the flop, if the villain shoves to Hero's raise ... fold. Why? Because that is a made hand. In this case, almost always a set.

I'm confused. You are saying that the villain donks the flop, we raise, and he three bet jams the flop and you want to fold. Correct?

How is that different from what I said?

To clarify, it still appears to me that you are assigning exactly 5 combos to villains 3-bet flop range (TT, JJ, 55). I think that is too narrow of a range. I've seen plenty of weird stuff to the point where I am never folding top two at this depth on the flop.

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04-04-2021 , 12:59 AM

#13

hyperknit

veteran

Join Date: Dec 2016 Posts: 2,692

I think I like a min raise here,

Our continues are:
AJ KJ QJ
QQ KK AA
JT JJ TT 55
KQ 98 Q9
(I think I’m dumping AQ/AK/99)

I think we could min raise all of it tbh

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04-04-2021 , 02:22 AM

#14

JayKon

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 4,444

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlueSpade84

And I have, many times over.

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04-04-2021 , 02:32 AM

#15

hyperknit

veteran

Join Date: Dec 2016 Posts: 2,692

Quote:

Originally Posted by JayKon

And I have, many times over.

Raise/folding seems worse than raise/calling

He can still have AJ or KQ

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04-04-2021 , 03:33 AM

#16

JayKon

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 4,444

Quote:

Originally Posted by hyperknit

Raise/folding seems worse than raise/calling

He can still have AJ or KQ

I suppose so. However, when you think it's 90%+ that someone has you beat, you go with the courage of your convictions, or you shouldn't be playing in a 2/5 for $500-$1,000.

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04-04-2021 , 04:21 AM

#17

WereBeer

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 10,700

I've literally never seen a cold 3bet here with a one pair hand or OESD in this situation. Raising for value seems fine, folding if BTN repops is also fine. If your game works different, well that needs a different approach.

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04-05-2021 , 09:34 AM

#18

abgtr

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 5,855

In the games I play in this is a fist-pump raise/GII into a combination of worse 2 pairs, KQs, occasional sets, and overplayed AJ/KJ hands.

A slightly more constructive comment: I think raising flop is good as long as you've got a raising range here. I worry with LP fish behind us, we'd actually overcall a lot of KK/AJ type hands, and probably wouldn't semibluff KQ. Dunno if you care about any sense of range balance here though.

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