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2/5: JJ vs. sLAG 2/5: JJ vs. sLAG

09-26-2014 , 11:39 PM
Villain (UTG+3): sLAG (obv), raises button/CO/HJ often, 3-bets a merged range and also calls 3-bets frequently. Big winner at 2/5, plays 5/T when it runs and is all about max pressure (so it seems).

Hero: image is TAG or NIT depending on which player at the table you ask, I always tighten up when I play with villain. He always puts pressure on me when we play a hand together.

Effective stacks are 950 (I cover)

Pre: 2 folds, V raises to 20, HJ calls, I 3-bet to 85 with JJ from the CO, folds to V, V calls, HJ folds

Flop (190): K83
V chks, I chk

Turn (190): 7
V bets 140, I call

River (470): A
V bets 320, Hero?
2/5: JJ vs. sLAG Quote
09-27-2014 , 12:42 AM
Bet flop, bet/fold turn to a raise. We gained no information by checking back the flop. You 3!, representing a strong holding and a K flopped. Betting is essential. Also consider, raise turn as I'd think his call there might narrow him to a draw, and hope to check back river... I can't see him in here with worse when river falls.

His check flop, bet turn line looks like less than TPGK, you said he's sLAG, his holdings include lots of middle/bottom pair hands, lots of suited connectors, lots of suited aces, lots of medium PPs. LAGs will often check TP weak kicker or middle pair hoping you check back and they'll fire turn with any pair or strong draw hoping you are MUBSY. That's their bread and butter. His PSB on he river probably cannot be worse than top pair, unless he is bluffing with a busted draw which is still rare, but not unseen in LLSNL and a true super LAG might even bluff shove this river. You failing to bet the flop gives him this ability, IMO.
2/5: JJ vs. sLAG Quote
09-27-2014 , 12:48 AM
Benzy, what's your 3 betting range for this spot?
2/5: JJ vs. sLAG Quote
09-27-2014 , 12:49 AM
Don't check the flop. You gave him the pot with that check. BaconMaker's right on all accounts.

Last edited by Snatch Adams; 09-27-2014 at 12:55 AM.
2/5: JJ vs. sLAG Quote
09-27-2014 , 01:03 AM
Grunch,
PF looks fine.
My standard OTF is to CBet $110ish, but I'm not against going for delayed Cbet on this flop texture since your really can't get called by worse here (maybe 1010 or 99). Although a delayed Cbet line is one I'd take with ABC players in order to get them to open up their game OTT, not a line to take against a tough players unless you have the balls and BR to call down 2 more streets for a high variance play.
I'm assuming that a delayed Cbet was your plan in order to get V to stab OTT, in which case mission accomplished. The 7 rainbow is a super safe card and I love the turn call.
OTR the V is extremely polarized considering his bet sizing. He seems like he wants to bet a scare card and force you to fold, but this all depends on how nitty he views you. Given your line I'd call. But this is not the line I'd take (i.e. Prefer a bet flop) against this type of V.
2/5: JJ vs. sLAG Quote
09-27-2014 , 02:19 AM
The first thing to note is that JJ can be played as a medium pair or a big pair. My guidance is that once you decide (3bet or call), you need to continue with that image. The second thing is you are nearly 200BB deep. That means that it is going to be hard to get a fold out of a sLAG pf. Your 3bet to 85 is giving him about 15:1 implied odds. In a tough game, that isn't enough for him to call. However, he probably doesn't consider this a tough game.

Whether to 3bet or call depends on your post flop skills. Given that this player has your respect, I agree with 3betting for you. I'd call, but I'd believe I can outplay him post flop with position.

The flop is a bet. It smacks your estimated 3bet range 2/3 of the time. The key thing to remember with good LAGs is that they don't like trying to bluff into strength. If he plays 2/5, he knows that most people aren't folding TP. A check with a FD means you don't have TP.

As played, I'm only calling the turn bet if I'm going to call the river bet. In general, I don't like calling the turn to re-evaluate on the river. A good player knows a lot of players will raise the turn if they have a big hand and will give up on the river.
2/5: JJ vs. sLAG Quote
09-27-2014 , 03:57 AM
if you're known to be nitty and sticky then fold. if you're the opposite then call.

...since you don't have real notes this isn't the right way to beat this guy/ get him off your back imo

if all you know is he calls light and likes to apply pressure, you should be 3betting depolarized and checking back flops with more sdv and cbetting hands like JJ on Kxx instead.

you only need to get to showdown once or twice for him to figure out whats going on and then you can readjust
2/5: JJ vs. sLAG Quote
09-27-2014 , 04:15 AM
Like bacon and others have said, you have to bet the flop. You lose so much info checking behind.
2/5: JJ vs. sLAG Quote
09-27-2014 , 09:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle Saunders
Benzy, what's your 3 betting range for this spot?
actual 3-betting range is AQ+, 99+, perceived 3-betting range is probably something similar (but who knows, we don't talk strategy at the table)

Going back I do like the bet flop, bet/fold turn, and check back river line by baconmaker and others. By checking this flop, my hand becomes face up (originally planning to induce a bluff from worse hands) and I am guessing on whether he actually has it or not.
2/5: JJ vs. sLAG Quote
09-27-2014 , 04:20 PM
Why bet the flop? We rarely get called by worse and eliminate the option of letting him bluff.

Turn is a mandatory call. He's probably betting his entire range there.

River sucks. He can easily have an A he bluffed on the turn and might even bet Kx like this. But he should also be continuing with all his bluffs. Any idea on his range pre? This is very reads dependent.
2/5: JJ vs. sLAG Quote
09-27-2014 , 08:48 PM
I liked your line ...against lags let them do the betting....and you got that result...

Now the A sucks on the river...but you have to be good...less then 1/3 of the time...

He probably 4 bets AA KK....he probably check A9s-a2s type hand or at best bets small...
he definatly checks QQ KQ KJs Kt or whatever...

As he likes to call 3 bets wide... and hell when you check the flop he puts you on QQ JJ type hand....hell I'm not a lag and I would be betting the turn and river here...with any two cards...

Call the river well played....
2/5: JJ vs. sLAG Quote
09-27-2014 , 09:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenzY
actual 3-betting range is AQ+, 99+, perceived 3-betting range is probably something similar (but who knows, we don't talk strategy at the table)

Going back I do like the bet flop, bet/fold turn, and check back river line by baconmaker and others. By checking this flop, my hand becomes face up (originally planning to induce a bluff from worse hands) and I am guessing on whether he actually has it or not.
If that's your range then I think you need to cbet your whole range.

If you we're oop then I don't mind check call because I would c/c hands like KK and AcKc to balance but ip when you check the flop you basically tell him you are capped at QQ.

If your plan if to call him down then its fine but it'll put you in spots like this.
2/5: JJ vs. sLAG Quote
09-27-2014 , 09:37 PM
What's a sLAG?
2/5: JJ vs. sLAG Quote
09-27-2014 , 10:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jesse123
What's a sLAG?
Super Loose Aggressive
2/5: JJ vs. sLAG Quote
09-27-2014 , 10:57 PM
def bet flop for value/protection/easier to play later streets/not give our hand away

I think River's a call according to the vilain description. River is an amazing bluff card and vilain knows it, he could easily be barreling off here with any 2.
2/5: JJ vs. sLAG Quote
09-27-2014 , 11:51 PM
what range is he opening from ep? this info is key.... some lags tighten considerably from ep, while most of the truer (and usually terrible) lags open light from any position believing they can outplay the table with atc....

this has to be mentioned in your post to really comment on the rest of the hand
2/5: JJ vs. sLAG Quote
09-28-2014 , 12:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by timmay28
what range is he opening from ep? this info is key.... some lags tighten considerably from ep, while most of the truer (and usually terrible) lags open light from any position believing they can outplay the table with atc....

this has to be mentioned in your post to really comment on the rest of the hand
Well, table was pretty passive and Villain has been raising quite often in the past 3 orbits or so. I know position was an important factor in his decision to call my 3-bet, since he is OOP his range is more narrow (PPs, AJss+, and maybe 87ss?) His hands almost never go to showdown (NEVER voluntarily shows either) so that is my best guess.
2/5: JJ vs. sLAG Quote
09-28-2014 , 12:47 AM
Here's the thing. If you would never check back the flop with [KK+,AK], then checking it back with JJ is terrible.

So, while I really like checking back the flop against an aggrotard villain (even a good aggrotard villain), it seems like you have enough history against this guy to know that he'll sniff you out for weakness now that you've 3b pre and checked the flop.

Thus, IMO, you should either start 3b pre and check the flop with your made hands, or you should cbet 100% of the time (or you should not have much of a 3b range when deep).

Quote:
Well, table was pretty passive and Villain has been raising quite often in the past 3 orbits or so. I know position was an important factor in his decision to call my 3-bet, since he is OOP his range is more narrow (PPs, AJss+, and maybe 87ss?) His hands almost never go to showdown (NEVER voluntarily shows either) so that is my best guess.
I just don't understand the logic behind trying to isolate the 1 good player at a table full of weak/passive fish... It just baffles the mind.

I am more then happy to let some aggrotard try to swing his dick around and be table captain. Station his ass.

ETA: as played, this is a fold OTR. He has to put you on exactly JJ-QQ here, and, he has to think you'll let it go for this bluff to work.
2/5: JJ vs. sLAG Quote
09-28-2014 , 03:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lapidator



I just don't understand the logic behind trying to isolate the 1 good player at a table full of weak/passive fish... It just baffles the mind.
The 3bet is fine imo since Hijack called too
2/5: JJ vs. sLAG Quote

      
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