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Old 08-11-2013, 01:59 PM   #1
lbrasci
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2/5 JJ preflop decision 75bb

This happen last Friday night at local casino.

I discussed this hand with my poker buddy and we are in disagreement of the correct play.

Hero 1200 JJ CO TAG. Been at the table for 1.5 hrs been running table over have winning image.

V 375 HJ 50's fat guy appears tilted after loosing an all in 15min ago. After buying back in, raised pf 3 consecutive hands.

V1 raising preflop with wide range.

V1 raises to 15 usually raises to 20. V calls. I make it 65. Everyone folds to V who makes it 185.

My thought process if he had AA,KK,QQ,AK he would of reraised V1 and plus he appears tilted. But usually 4 bets are 95% AA, KK, AK. And his line didn't make sense at all. And why would he not 3bet with such a big hand in late position.

V1 was the one that stacked V earlier.

Your thoughts?

Flat, fold, shove.

I know it's only 75bb but trying to figure out correct play.
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Old 08-11-2013, 02:16 PM   #2
Garick
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Re: 2/5 JJ preflop decision 75bb

I shove. Call/4-bet is usually a medium PP, esp in mid-late position, and esp from a tilting V. He's likely convinced that he's flipping against your AK if he calls, and might not call with overs OTF. Get it in now.

Last edited by Garick; 08-11-2013 at 02:22 PM. Reason: typo
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Old 08-11-2013, 02:18 PM   #3
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Re: 2/5 JJ preflop decision 75bb

Shove. I'd put him on a medium pocket pair, suited connectors or some other marginal hand that he really doesn't want to play out but doesn't want to give up because he's already invested in the pot (and of course he's tilted). You're almost guaranteed a call with any two cards which is where the bulk of our value comes in this situation. No way he's got QQ+, and you're still ahead of AK and AQ, which is like our worst case scenario. I'm shipping those chips in any day.
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Old 08-11-2013, 02:51 PM   #4
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Re: 2/5 JJ preflop decision 75bb

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Originally Posted by Garick View Post
I shove. Call/4-bet is usually a medium PP, esp in mid-late position, and esp from a tilting V. He's likely convinced that he's flipping against your AK if he calls, and might not call with overs OTF. Get it in now.
tHIS
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Old 08-11-2013, 05:57 PM   #5
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Re: 2/5 JJ preflop decision 75bb

Well, it could be QQ+ but there are two things that stick out: 1) it doesn't make sense, especially for a guy probably on tilt who won't make higher level plays and 2) it's a fairly big raise after an opportunity to make a 3-bet which has a better chance of being called if he's going for blood against V. You could level yourself into finding reasons to put him on a big pocket pair only, but with the tilt and incongruities in his betting pattern, I'd put shenanigans in his range and shove it.
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Old 08-11-2013, 06:10 PM   #6
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Re: 2/5 JJ preflop decision 75bb

Shove. limp/rr might is usually beating JJ, call/rr is tilt.
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Old 08-12-2013, 03:36 PM   #7
lbrasci
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Re: 2/5 JJ preflop decision 75bb

Thanks for all your input.

My thought process was the same I put V on mid pocket pair tilt 4 bet for the various reasons previously stated.

I shove with JJ. V snapped called, he had KK.

My poker buddy was saying that eventhough he appears tilted a 50 yr old guy is not 4bettting with no less than QQ+ or AK. And at best I was flipping so I should of folded.

When I saw V's KK I was wtf!

I don't see this scenario happening that often, but is this always a call as long as V is not a OMC?
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Old 08-12-2013, 03:57 PM   #8
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Re: 2/5 JJ preflop decision 75bb

Agree with other posters about his range. Happy to gii here.
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Old 08-12-2013, 05:34 PM   #9
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Re: 2/5 JJ preflop decision 75bb

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Originally Posted by Garick View Post
I shove. Call/4-bet is usually a medium PP, esp in mid-late position, and esp from a tilting V. He's likely convinced that he's flipping against your AK if he calls, and might not call with overs OTF. Get it in now.
+1

I expect to see 88-TT most of the time and maybe AQs.

If V shows up with AA/KK here I think he may have picked up on a tell from Hero that Hero was going to raise.

I completely raped a villain last night when I have AA in the SB 2/5nl eff stacks $700 I cover

UTG LAG raises to $20, MP, LP, HJ, CO, BTN call, action to me, I glance left and I see BB has $150 in his hand ready to bet, so I call, BB makes it $150, folds around to me, I shove.

BB tanks forever and says, "what the hell do you have? you can't have a real hand because you just flatted the $20." After 2 minutes he calls.

Board K 8 2 8 T
V has QQ
I win w AA

entire table thought I was a super donk that got lucky when in reality I always look left before I bet and about once per five sessions I encounter the above.

So if V shows up with something monster here, you may be giving off tells prior to when you raise with a big hand....
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Old 08-12-2013, 05:45 PM   #10
lbrasci
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Re: 2/5 JJ preflop decision 75bb

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Originally Posted by dgiharris View Post
+1

I expect to see 88-TT most of the time and maybe AQs.

If V shows up with AA/KK here I think he may have picked up on a tell from Hero that Hero was going to raise.

I completely raped a villain last night when I have AA in the SB 2/5nl eff stacks $700 I cover

UTG LAG raises to $20, MP, LP, HJ, CO, BTN call, action to me, I glance left and I see BB has $150 in his hand ready to bet, so I call, BB makes it $150, folds around to me, I shove.

BB tanks forever and says, "what the hell do you have? you can't have a real hand because you just flatted the $20." After 2 minutes he calls.

Board K 8 2 8 T
V has QQ
I win w AA

entire table thought I was a super donk that got lucky when in reality I always look left before I bet and about once per five sessions I encounter the above.

So if V shows up with something monster here, you may be giving off tells prior to when you raise with a big hand....
Maybe so. I am sure I do.

But the only thing is I never look at my hand until player before me acts.

Yeah I also look left before acting to see if player after me looks like is going to raise.

Last edited by lbrasci; 08-12-2013 at 05:56 PM.
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Old 08-12-2013, 05:48 PM   #11
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Re: 2/5 JJ preflop decision 75bb

I had a similar situation recently in 1/2 against a tilty old guy. EP raise to 12, 5 callers then Villain calls on the button. I make it 65 from the BB, folds around to villain who shoves for 130. I snap called and he had AA. Doesn't make any sense, and I don't know why I posted it because there's nothing to learn from it.


Shoving is absolutely the correct play in your hand, in my opinion.
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Old 08-12-2013, 06:00 PM   #12
dgiharris
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Re: 2/5 JJ preflop decision 75bb

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Originally Posted by lbrasci View Post
Maybe so. I am sure I do.

But the only thing is I never look at my hand until player before me acts.

Yeah I also look left before acting to see if player after me looks like is going to raise.


if you don't look at your hand until its your action, then you can't give off any tells???

My guess is that perhaps you did look at your hand prior to action getting on you and you have a tell. Otherwise, if you honestly didn't look at your hand then its 100% impossible for you to give off a tell.

So, if you didn't give off a tell and V shows up with AA/KK then the most likely explanation is V is a FPS donk that just got super lucky.
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Old 08-12-2013, 06:09 PM   #13
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Re: 2/5 JJ preflop decision 75bb

people that slow the game by not looking at their hand tilts the **** out of me. They are supposed to be the serious players yet are happy to slow the game down and encourage others to so the same (because new players copy, ldo)

Hardly anybody is exploiting you but even if there are some players, just look and follow a set routine.

A few years ago it was sunglasses, now this is what the wannabe pros do to try and impress everybody.

BTW I agree with Dgi that the preload is the single most profitable "tell" at live poker and I love when people on my left do it, but I don't sit there and wait etc, you just catch it in normal gameflow.
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Old 08-12-2013, 06:14 PM   #14
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Re: 2/5 JJ preflop decision 75bb

I look at my cards 1 at a time lol. It makes me look like a donk, but in reality it speeds things up. You know how many hands/hour I lose because old men have arthritis or 21 year olds pretend they're on tv and wait until action is on them, then stare at their cards for 10 seconds like they're making sure the pocket cam captures the rank and suit?

I wait until the guy to my right acts so he doesn't know I'm folding, but I've gotten so fast that if he mucks my cards usually hit the dead pile before his.
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Old 08-12-2013, 06:49 PM   #15
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Re: 2/5 JJ preflop decision 75bb

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Originally Posted by quesuerte View Post
....

A few years ago it was sunglasses, now this is what the wannabe pros do to try and impress everybody.....
You know what the latest trend is now and it is starting to tilt the ever loving s*** out of me???...

The Extended Tank for basic calls and/or raises.

Over the past year I've noticed an exponential rise of "tanking". Players tank to call, tank to bet, tank to raise, tank to fold. They tank preflop, post flop, turns, rivers, it doesn't matter. As they tank they shuffle chips and do the poker stare and shuffle chips and stack them in piles and shuffle them some more and then take 2 minutes to size out an obvious raise, oftentimes going back and forth adding one more chip then thinking about it some more and reshuffling chips and restacking them and adding two more chips and then some more thought and then adding just one more chip and then after 3 minutes have passed they raise 1.5 times the initial bet. :<

For the love of god that annoys me to no end.

So, to counter this, I either look at my smart phone or I grab a magazine and completely ignore Mr. Tank while he goes through his preset Poker After Dark Durr impersonation tanking routine...

This throws Mr. Tank off but he still tanks so the table can see how awesome he is. Eventually when he is done and finally raises I INSTANTLY act. Since Mr. Tank took so long I've already thought through my actions depending on what he does. My favorite is when the situation is right to just min-raise or raise them back . They go through all the trouble hollywooding and then I throw the action right back in their faces.

This seems to throw them off since they expect you to be in awe of their awesome tanking.
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Old 08-13-2013, 01:32 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lbrasci View Post
Thanks for all your input.

My thought process was the same I put V on mid pocket pair tilt 4 bet for the various reasons previously stated.

I shove with JJ. V snapped called, he had KK.

My poker buddy was saying that eventhough he appears tilted a 50 yr old guy is not 4bettting with no less than QQ+ or AK. And at best I was flipping so I should of folded.

When I saw V's KK I was wtf!

I don't see this scenario happening that often, but is this always a call as long as V is not a OMC?
This is one manifestation of tilt. He doesn't want to lose another big pot so he wants to see a safe flop before he bombs it.

But once you raise, and the pot is suddenly big, now it morphs into fps for him cuz you can never have AA since he took a weird line.

Shoving is right as JJ does fine against villain's range.

You just happen to hit the top of his range.
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