No I am not afraid to 3! 4th best hand when it makes sense to do so. This situation does not qualify and I am quite confident that I will make way more $$ long term flatting vs this type of V here then setting up a spot where we "just rip it in and get called...yay".

Not being MUBSy by flatting...I am increasing long term EV, part of which comes from NEVER having to fold JJ preflop. DUCY?

So what's your plan for the hand? Flat, let everyone in for $30 and have absolutely zero idea where you are on any flop that doesn't have a J on it??

HH shows 3 way total so not sure why everyone thinks we are like 7, 8 way. If you cant play JJ 3 way IP after the flop, then you should probably rack up.

So based on the above, you are 3! JJ for info so you can "know where your at"? I thought it was for HUGE value vs the 60 YOWG. Basically, against the normal 60 YOWG, you will actually fold out all of his range that you do crush, get called by QQ and AK-AQ and most likely get 4! by AA/KK. That doesn't sound like a great result. This is not a 25 YO internet kid

And yes, I am not afraid to play JJ (or frankly any hand worth a call) on pretty much ANY flop when IP vs a pre-flop raiser. This is where we actually make most of our $$.

Id say getting called by all worse, with an extra $60 each in the pot, and being able to comfortably fold v a 4bet with what is pretty much always going to be a better hand is a good result??

What hands would you 3B here out of interest? KK & AA?

That is the thing....you aren't getting called by all worse. That isn't what 60 YOWG's do...that is the problem here. So all that "dead equity" you think you scoop up goes poof.

Of course I 3! AA/KK, AKs, AK, maybe even QQ. It is V dependent and given my stack size, I will only 3! here if I feel comfy GII. Vs this V, I don't with JJ so the higher EV play (IMO) is to flat and play IP. Change effective stacks to $1k and the pic is much different.

Don’t bother with logic it’s not his strong suit.

And no - he’s only 3! AA because there’s a chance KK, QQ and AK all have to be 3!/folded pre thus decreasing the long term EV of those hands according to his gorilla math.

So are you saying that 3b is never getting called, the guy either folds or 4b all better hands.

Or

He only calls with better hands than JJ??

it's only the 5th best

I'd rather have more money in front of me to maneuver post flop than have to 3bet/play fit or fold basically. You can't always count on everyone folding pre and if we cbet with a queen king or ace otf, we lost over half our stack already then would have to check/fold. We don't have to flop a set if we flat pre, we have SDV.

Getting $$ into the pot with a hand that is ahead of Vs range first and foremost; not allowing half the table to come along with a hand that plays poorly multiway secondly.

Results-oriented thinking. I'd call this highly unusual given the sizes here.

Some of us don't play on autopilot like you.

NEVER getting called? No. But range that a 60 YOWG calls with is not as wide as you guys think. Again, this is not some internet whiz kid....

DING DING we have a winner.

Look I think 3! here is the right play for some of the other reasons stated, but this thread is the epitome of what frustrates about this forum: the need for everything to get so personal. Shorn makes some good points on merits of flatting and don't see the need to attack his intellect. Some of the longtime posters have this arrogance about them that everything is "standard" and anyone who thinks differently is a moron.

Yeah me too. And I apologize if I contributed to it in this thread.

We are either the HJ or CO. When we go $100 pre the BTN has a calling frequency of less than 5% so for sake of argument we are never x/f.

Why do we need to maneuver with JJ? It’s not like we are playing a speculative 87s and need to see turns and rivers with deep effective stacks behind. We are trying to extract value while we have the best hand/range (pre) and then extract more value on boards where we are likely ahead.

Being IP allows us to do this very well while also controlling the size of the pot. We can down bet flop and still stack hands like TT-88 on good turns and rivers when they put us on AK. We can x back Axx and Kxx flops and try to get to showdown and bluff catch where appropriate.

The logic for flatting has been very suspect and continues to ignore the fact that we can potentially play a 5-way hand with the worst relative position after the PFR. BTN is already in for $10 (and we don’t know if CO is between us or not). By the time we call pot is $80 and BTN is getting 4:1 - he is calling with damn near ATC. Now EP is also priced in getting 5:1 and we have a 4-way pot with JJ. We just aren’t winning this pot unimproved all that often.

Strong argument, and I think the poor relative position is being undervalued by some because technically we are "IP".

I wish I could find a game where people raise TT-88, get 3 bet and then still stack off without a set. I can only imagine what my win rate would be in a game like that.

That’s not the important takeaway Mike. It’s a general statement. If nobody will ever pay off 3 streets that way than you can go b/x/b. You can also GII over two streets with a b/x/b line. There are many lines you can take to get 100 BB’s in the middle in a 3! pot.

Based off description, this is weighted to QQ+ or a set. Not sure I would fold this in game, more than likely I call and eval river. There are no draws that make sense with villain's range that can get there, so if villain blasts again I give him credit for the hand and fold unless we bink a J. Not crazy about planning to fold to a bet OTR, so can see merit in giving up now.

I'm with JBuz that this is a 3b! pre.

I think there is a definite gray area to 27% equity vs reasonable range vs what is actually happening at the table. Not saying the 60 yr old read is not important, but in live games, with how the action has played out, its important to see that V can easily and more than likely have QQ+ here. I reluctantly in my head could see myself folding JJ here on the turn...which just makes me terrible apparently

At 2-5, I would say 80+ an hour...easily. and those games do exist

Im sure they do, but not in S.Florida

Criminal not to make it 140 pre and gii post for 50bb.

This is what’s interesting about the 3 bet Vs Flat argument. It’s not only player dependeant, but geographically dependeant. Since I play 2/5 in South Florida I can say that if you always 3 bet JJ against a 60 year old player, your going to be winning a small pot when villain folds everything you beat, or losing a big pot when you don’t flop a set. Ranges are just way tighter here.