Local 2/5, standard mix of players.

V1 (250) : Older black guy. Huge donator, in for at least 800 in the past hour alone, always buying in short. Stacks off with TPNK type hands.

V2 (275) : Arab MAGWETP. Haven't seen him get into any spots so now insights into him yet.


Hero (3K) : Early 20s, headphones. Probably seen as aggressive, usually coming into pots for raises, rarely limping.

Hand:

V1 and V2 limp from MP and CO, respectively.
Hero raises to 35 OTB with JJ
Only v1 and V2 call

Flop (105) - 478r

V1 bets 45
V2 calls
Hero makes it 175
Both call

Turn (225) - 3 bringing a flush draw

Checks to Hero who goes all in.
Both call

Thoughts?

Additional info:

1. V1 I consider pretty irrelevant as he's impossible to range, and will get stacks in with nearly anything. I've seen him gii with MPNK, TPNK, once twice with a draw to the 2nd nuts.

2. V2 I've got a physical tell on him OTF and OTT that he's extremely weak/scared.

3. I'm shoving the turn because if one of them called pre with 56, I'm already paying them off and this changes nothing.* Am I wrong here?

Tough flop spot. I don't hate just calling on the flop as it looks quite strong on your end and if they both pot turn or something silly you have a mega easy lay down.

Main issue with shoveling this flop against two players is were just getting it in bad here so often, even hands like 56s have so much equity against us. And that's one of our OK/good scenarios.

Side question, which casino is this?

Don't like this line vs normal villains as we are over-repping our hand making it super easy for villains to fold worse and we will generally only get it in vs hands that have us in bad shape. I guess if villains are terribad weekend players that can't fold top pair (or gutshots) even though we made it painfully obvious that we have top pair crushed then this is a good line.

Fine.

Don't know if it matters but on the strip.

Pre fine.

Given stack sizes, just shove flop.

Looks good.

Given stack sizes i guess its fine.

But if they had had 100bbs effective im prob not getting it in after that flop.

As far as these types of players go and board textures go...this board texture smashes them both.

Im fine with the flop raise given reads on villian stacking with tp wtvr kicker...but normally id be 50/50....

SPR is like 2:1 at the flop, so it's kinda a yawn/GII spot. Turn 3 is one of only 8 cards in the deck that don't suck, so definitely all for a raise given stack sizes. Even a turn J kills action.

I probably just shove because that looks more like a draw.

To the posters: What's your line on flop if not raise? Esp if stack sizes were bigger?

for 60bb, this line is fine.

You raised preflop so the only hand in the entire universe you can have is AK... so they can call with any pair.

Obviously we get owned by the straight and 2p, but my main criteria for putting short stackers all-in is if they can call with worse.

8x, T9, TT, 99, and 7x pair + SD are all hands that are behind that can/will call here.
obviously we lose to sets, 2p, and straights...

but adding up all the hands that can call vs hands we lose to and the fact both villains call, and I think this spot is slightly +EV. Not super boner inspiring, but okay for 60bb.

With these stacks, I would pretty much always raise.

With bigger stacks, I'd generally call and play poker on the turn.

Speaking generally (not specifically about this hand) just because you are short is no excuse for throwing value down the tubes. You are raising a super dry board and most 2/5 villains are not dumb enough to get it in here with one pair. In fact, most 2/5 villains lead this flop for information so that they can fold when you raise them. Villains lead asks "do you have AK" and when you raise you tell them "No, I have an overpair so let's get it in". It really depends on the villains and your image, but if your default is to simply raise because you are 60bbs deep effective then sometimes you are just burning money.

This is def not a superdry board....especially for these villians ranges...

So are you saying we should call flop and fold turn to another bet which is very likely from atleast one of them? In that case, why not fold flop itself? What when V's try to get info with their 89 and you let them by just flatcalling flop and bink two pair/trips on turn and are left clueless?

We can quibble over the exact meaning of "pretty much always," and there are certainly exceptions, but for the vast majority of cases, you're going to lose more value on 7/8s of turns than you're going to gain. Obviously there are a lot of spew monkeys out there where it's much better to leave money behind that they can bluff, and you can just call down regardless of run out, but this was so far from the case here that I didn't much consider it.

Also re: being "dumb enough" to get it in here with one pair, if you're playing someone who doesn't get it in here with one pair, then you should be shoving this flop a loooooottttttttt, and they will be absolutely, brutally exploited for folding that much. I would consider people who b/f 99 here the dumb ones.

Anyway, the point about the stack sizes isn't that it gives us an "excuse" for shoving here. It makes it so that our position on the turn is actually a disadvantage; it makes it so that we don't have to worry about how we react to a 3b; it makes it so that we're not getting more money in when we raise the flop than we do when we call the flop and bet the turn; etc.

If a player is going to donk out and fold then I will raise them with air. If they aren't going to fold then I don't raise them with air. The players that fold to me are bad and lose some money to me but the ones that call are even worse and are the players that the games are built around.

Btw, our calling range is much wider than our raising range so when we call it's easy for villain to justify light calls even if scare cards hit because they can put us on a straight draw.

That really shouldn't be the case. Obviously our value range is stronger when we shove, but we shouldn't have a bluff-calling range when there's only one bet left behind and villain acts first on the turn.

Sorry, what I am referring to is what the villain perceives are calling range to be. That range is far wider than what he will perceive our range to be when we raise. Raising this flop is a super strong line.

Personally I think you played this well considering their stack sizes and your description of the players. The flop could've been raised, but after 2 checks on the turn I'm all in as well. No doubt

This particular villain is getting it in with TPNK.

I know you moved on to talk about this hand in a general sense, but I don't know what a perceived range means when we're talking about a nameless, faceless villain.

We can generalize most villains that we'll meet in a day-to-day basis at LLSNL games, but I know a great deal of players who refuse to put us on 87 or 44 when we open for $35 preflop and are more willing to think that we have AK making a play. I know a great deal of players who believe in pot commitment, and are going to snap us off with any hand that isn't complete air. I know a lot of players who see a shove as greater weakness than a call, and say "I guess your broadway didn't hit, huh?" as they put their chips in the middle.

Also, where we really disagree is that shoving this flop is a "super strong line." We can be doing this with any two cards with paint on them (which is a *MASSIVE* portion of our range), and in fact we should be doing this a fair bit with our best overcards + 66/55/T9.

I think the main thing that makes the OP line good is the read on V2. Without a read on V2, I would call the flop and re-evaluate on the turn. Knowing that V2 is weak, I'm happy to raise and shove against V1's weak range with V2's dead money in the pot.

V1 seems like a pretty serious calling station. Shoving with KQs would be suicide. People are advocating shoving the flop purely for value. We're expecting him to stack off with weak one pair hands. We don't want him calling our KQs with his A8o (which is what is seems like he'd do).

I was trying to address PokerIsTooEasy's "general sense" of how we should play this hand as best we could.

This spot against described villain is just ha-doi easy.