2/5 NL

V1: older Asian man (covers). His play hasn't been too remarkable so far. Has raised with a fairly loose range and has called preflop raises with some weaker hands like K5s but hasn't gone crazy with them. Other than the fact that he can play pretty wide I don't have any major reads on him.

V2: ($1500) Young white guy, has mentioned playing in 25/50 games before although it isn't clear if he is a rich amateur or a former pro. Regardless now he's married and his wife is sitting with him. Has proven to be pretty tight but also understands the game. Playing a small percent of hands but not afraid to switch it up. On a previous hand he three bet me in position with Q10o, checked a A109 flop and then called two barrels from me on a 9-6 runout and his hand was good. I moved recently to get position on him which I'm sure he noticed because he had previously moved to get position on me.

Hero ($2000): Hero is MAWG, aggressive winning image at this table. Has stacked a few people thus far. On the two most notable hands thus far hero four bet shoved QQ for $600 against table whale and was good against 99 and raised pre with KQ, checked QQ10 flop, 10 came on the turn and hero got $600 in against 108.

OTTH: V1 opens $20 from utg +1, two callers in late position, V2 calls in SB, I call in BB with Q10dd.

Flop ($100)
Qc5d2c

Checks to V1 who bets $50, folds to V2 in SB who calls, hero calls in BB.

Turn ($250)
Qc5d2c Jd

Checks to V1 who bets $150, V2 calls. Action to hero. What's the best play here?

I've done some math on this spot that I'll share later but just want to get some gut feelings first.

I might have check/raised the flop or even donked. Now that we called and SB called, I'm a little more concerned about our being ahead and our diamonds outs. I probably just call turn and evaluate river. Check/raising turn is pretty sexy, but you have to know they'll fold better (especially V1), and I'm not sure they will, although it's hard to put V2 on better.

A range for both would be nice What's V1's raising range from EP -- are hands like K5 in it?

Will oblige although this could be off slightly.

V1's flop range is very wide but I think when he barrels turn his range is AQ, KQ, QJ, KK, AA, QQ, 55, 22, AKcc, AKdd.

V2's range is something like all club draws, AQ, KQ, maybe KK or AA although I doubt the over pairs are likely given preflop flat. I don't think he ever has two pair or a set.

That helps quite a bit and is what I would expect. Now that we are here, I just call behind. I really don't think they are folding better on turn and I'm not quite ready to give up my hand vs. these guys, although V1 could have us crushed right now -- we can catch up and I think we'll know if we do. Of course, with your ranges for them, a fold on the turn isn't out of the question, but I'd call.

The way you have been running/playing, I do kind of like the check/raise on the flop.

I would have lead the flop a decent % of the time for value. On the turn not sure how interesting it actually is, our hand is going to be good a small % of the time but not enough that we'd be calling if we didn't have the draw, we're going to have a hard time getting V1 to fold any better hands (which is most of his hands at this point) and V2 we might be able to get to fold better but who cares when the pot is protected?

This doesn't seem interesting, seems like a super standard call and doing anything else is silly.

I guess I'd turn this question around then and ask it another way. You are hero and you raised pre with AA, got 4 callers. Then you bet a Q high flop and got two callers. Now you bet a J turn, got one caller and the other guy check raises you. Now you have some unappetizing decisions. Do you call? If you do, the SB is certainly also calling with his flush draw and you need to fold any club rivers. If the river is a blank are you calling a big bet from the turn check raiser? What bluffs does he have that would play this way rather than raise flop? Do you shove over a turn c/r? That would get the SB out but some of the time you are getting in $2k stacks with 2 outs.

Not convinced it is silly to think about raising.

I think the place to raise was the flop. Raising now is interesting and might work against AA or KK, but he could also have 55, 22, QQ, JJ, AdKd, AcKc, and QJ, none of which are likely folding. Maybe the AKs fold. He could also get stubborn.

We are oop and our line, if we were to C/R, might look somewhat suspect on a drawy board. Put another way, would we play 55 the same way? If the opponents believe so, then you can make a case for C/R. Otherwise, I'd flat.

IP, raising the turn in general is viewed as strong. We add some FE to our so-so SD equity.

I don't play against myself, it wouldn't be profitable. We have better hands for a check raise on this turn, like smaller flush draws or kt, and we have a narrow value range after overflatting the flop. This is a bad hand and a bad spot to check raise someone who is fishy like v1 is.

Raise.. his range isn't that strong and his sizing on flop and turn is on the smaller side, if we don't improve we will often get to choose between free showdown and turning our hand into a bluff.. we might be able to fold better hands like kq, aa with this line.. also we charge club draws appropiately

I don't have K10dd in my range here. Would not be calling flop. Maybe 34dd or other Qxdd hands are the only other diamond draws I have in my range. Plus Q10dd does block QQ which is the primary hand that I'm worried about from V1.

It also blocks top pair which is what you're trying to get to fold. And you're right about KTdd, I meant KTcc on the flop. We have a disguised hand with showdown value and implied odds I can think of a number of hands that would rather raise than what we currently have, which is plenty good to call with and pretty bad to bluff with.

Unless you are advocating a pure raising or folding range here, I can't see this hand fitting in any range other than a calling range.

peel

Where I play in our $2/$5, C/R should be on the flop (in most of the games I have sat in). large amount, but not too much.

As played, Turn, Flat/Eval - IMO.



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To quickly address the feedback: I'm not c/r flop with TPBK. Only worse folds and better always calls. I'd have to triple barrel a lot of run outs to get the job done and I don't see any reason to do that when it is very possible that I have the best hand and can get to showdown cheaply if V1 is just c betting. Some people might advocate a c/f on flop but I think we are too deep and my hand is too good. I'm not going to lose a ton on this hand and would have just c/f to a bet from V1 on the turn unimproved.

So let's do some math. i have us at 25% against the range we established earlier. We are calling $150 to win $550 so we have a slightly -EV call that requires us to get a caller post flop to make money. So our ability to make this hand is dependent upon us sizing a bet profitably on the river. This could be huge +EV with good sizing or -EV if V's fold.

Working out the math on a raise is more complicated but I'll post some thoughts on that shortly.

If we make a hand we don't think that we can get $50 on the river?
Or $100?

Or more likely, $200?
That pot will be $700 at that point.
If you truly believe that we can't get $200 more in on favorable rivers for us then peel with ATC here on the turn and bet $200 on bad rivers and profit.

It isn't so much that I'm afraid they won't call $50 as I'm afraid of sizing my bet incorrectly and maybe getting a fold. I'm obviously never betting $50, probably not even $200. Most likely im going for something like $350-400. I think it is possible they could fold to that sizing.

Then don't bet that.