Isn't MP supposed to play a 3! or fold strat against an EP open in optimal play? What even is an optimal MP flat range?

My MP range is built off real life observation that a typical LLSNL player is VPIPING 30-35%. That's why most pots are 3+ way on a 10 handed table.

If everyone were playing optimal preflop ranges then a UTG open would take down the blinds a majority of the time in a 10 handed game with no ante. Anyone who's played LLSNL knows that's not the case.

I borrowed my preflop range from the exact preflop range you posted in the recent JJ thread, with the addition of the offsuit broadway trash that I see played all the time (it's hard to get to 30% VPIP without including JTo,etc.)

I would like to see how this plays out?

so you check flop and it checks around

now your 4 way to a turn 9 and 1st to act
are you betting now and if so why?
are you checking again and if so why?

thank you

I know in 6max - MP should never be flat calling preflop and should adopt only a 3bet or fold strategy vs an UTG open. I don't have optimal 10 handed ranges so I can't be certain about that but it wouldn't surprise me.

I underestimated the difference here between an A66r board and a board like A53tt. There is actually a huge difference.

I had studied A53tt boards before and it mostly range checked OOP. So I was thinking the boards were similar but they aren't.

From a studying view point - it is harder to analyze most live situations since almost every pot is multi-way. But Simple 3 way is coming out (or may have just been released). So we can start analyzing 3 way spots closer to equilibrium - I think people will be surprised how much less often we should cbet in 3 way pots vs head's up pots.

yes bet big because Villain's capped their range by not betting the flop.

If it were head's up it would be an over bet but probably not multi-way.

how exactly did they cap their range?

would 99 or 56 67 AA or another AK have bet that flop when checked to ?

and yes not re-raising AA or AK now a days is trending more and more

What is the "tt" designation here? That Hero has top top?

It's just theoretical deduction - if you want to get technical it is "a priori information" (If you've ever read the Mathematics of Poker).

AA almost always 3bets preflop so it is heavily discounted
6x should be betting the flop almost always to get value from Ax
We are worried about 99 but it is only 3 combos

It's fine if they flat AA preflop - because we make money from them in other ways. We get to over realize our equity with hands that can beat AA.

Two-tone.

So any board with a FD on it.

Add A6, A9, and 66 that also may x flop, although only a hand full of combos.

Yeah but when we are hand reading we are worried about the the most likely scenario not the least likely.

Sure Villain's can slowplay quads or whatever but overall it will be higher EV to bet big OTT with AK than small.

I'm not disagreeing with you ; those who flat AA KK QQ pre can be beat but in the last 6-8 months (700Hrs) limping pre from any position with any amount of limpers already in is trending more and more.

just saying we can't discount them just because WE wouldn't play that way.

are you leading the turn with your entire range or just an Ace?

and FYI ; I only commented on the river action before but I would have checked flop 90% of the time vs 3 others

Then you tighten up your isolating range vs limpers that slow play monsters. There's a million ways to exploit players like that.

If I range check flop then I am uncapped OTT.

So in general I would check my weak Aces twice and bet my stronger ones. You also should probably X 99 at some frequency so that we can have a XR range OTT. 66 should most likely be checked as well to free roll other pocket pairs into hitting a boat so you can stack them OTR.

And then bet your stronger 6x first before your weaker 6x. As for sizing's I think play 1 sizing OTF/1 sizing OTT/2 sizing's OTR is best for most people.

So I'd just always bet big OTT when I bet.

Yeah, I actually had misread OP before. Thought this spot was heads up. Now see that there are 3 field callers.

I remember reading that Monker had the ability to solve multiway spot, but it was computationally expensive. I remember reading that one of the main insights from the solver is the adjustment in multiway spots of (1) betting ranges need to be made way tighter from all positions and (2) bet sizing from OOP should be made way smaller (with 20-25% pot being a sweet spot for OOP).


I wouldn't be surprised if TPTK+ is a bet for 20% pot in optimal play 4ways (assuming the MP range I posted for all the field callers). I also wouldn't be surprised if it's a check 100% spot. From what I remember reading, that 55% sizing used in this spot is definitely not optimal from OOP multiway. But I wouldn't be surprised if it is an optimal adjustment to deviate with that bet sizing against sticky opponents.



Part of the issue with checking AK from OOP, even 4ways is that it makes it harder to get 3 streets of value from AQ/AJ. I know that AQ is probably supposed to fold by the river if we decide to triple barrel multiway but we have to adjust for the fact that LLSNL players are often resigned to stacking off with AQ/AJ here. Under reasonable preflop assumptions, AQ/AJ make up far more significant portion of the field's range than 6x (at least twice as likely). If we check flop, how do you propose to get stacks in against AQ/AJ? Notice that AQ/AJ can take a bet\check\call line, or a bet\bet\check line, or check\call\call line, and we'll miss 1 street of value.

How does the loss of value against AQ/AJ by missing a street of value when we hold AK compensate for the gain in value that we don't necessarily lose our stack when an opponent holds 6x. It's hard to quantify. Without having seen multiway solver material, I don't think it's an obvious check like you initially claimed.

Kinda surprised I'm the first to suggest this...

I really like checking the turn OOP.

Bet flop for value, sure, which crucially, thins the field.

Now we're heads up OOP. A turn check pot controls vs a 6, and we gain a lot of information on his sizing if he bets. We under-rep our holding vs. worse aces. Dipping into 2005 limit hold'em theory to say we're way ahead/way behind, so giving free cards don't really hurt our equity.

In most scenarios vs described villain, you can bet river for value.

I just think that checking the turn minimizes losses when he's full, and gains you a ton of information for how to play ALL rivers, especially THIS river.

I think if you bet/bet/bet as standard, on this runout you'll value-town yourself against a 6 too often.