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Old 07-11-2018, 10:02 AM   #1
momo_uk
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2/5: How to exploit players who raise for information?

2/3/5,

Weak-tight Asian (500) limps UTG,
Snug Hero in CO (500) raises 35 with AJo,
Snug V on BTN (550) calls,
UTG calls.

Flop (~110): 885r
UTG checks, Hero cbets 50, V raises to 110, UTG folds, Hero folds

V claimed to have an overpair.

Another hand, I saw two other players in a similar dynamic OTF where the OR cbet $30 into $55 on a 533ss flop and got raised to $80 by 88 and folded.

It seems like these raises for information are working perfectly for these players because they get an idea of exactly where they stand when we cbet/fold Ahi type hands. If we call their raise, they end up playing cautiously and check it down. If we 3b them, they’re probably folding.

The obvious adjustment is to flat their tiny information raises, and if turn goes check/check, lead out river... but it feels a little too expensive to make that move. Same with 3betting them.

Should we just check/give up flops against these players because we block their Ahi whiffs? How else can we tackle them?

Also, how do we handle these information raises with actual value hands, the weaker overpairs like 99-JJ and the stronger ones like QQ+?
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Old 07-11-2018, 10:16 AM   #2
MikeStarr
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Re: 2/5: How to exploit players who raise for information?

Why do you think they were raising for information? Both examples are of overpairs on paired boards. Maybe they thought they were ahead and raised for value?
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Old 07-11-2018, 10:47 AM   #3
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2/5: How to exploit players who raise for information?

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Why do you think they were raising for information? Both examples are of overpairs on paired boards. Maybe they thought they were ahead and raised for value?

Because the standard play with those smaller overpairs is to just call. It’d be considered a raise for value only if they think they’d get called by worse, which isn’t happening often.

By raising,

1) They get clarity about their hand rather than playing a guessing game on the turn when someone double barrels into them.

2) They deny equity to AK/AQ type hands by making them fold.

3) If they get called, they continue very cautiously and won’t put a lot more money in the pot and get a cheap showdown.

Basically, it’s a win-win situation for them very often.
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Old 07-11-2018, 12:07 PM   #4
SwolyswoND
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Re: 2/5: How to exploit players who raise for information?

The spot doesn't come up enough in LLSNL for me to be concerned about it, but if you want to exploit this precise line, it would be to float in position the flop raise with two overs (ideally ones with BDFD or BDSD) and then blast basically any turn card.

When you're OOP, just fold and thank the V for saving you money that you might've wasted on double barrelling
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Old 07-11-2018, 12:12 PM   #5
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Re: 2/5: How to exploit players who raise for information?

B/f is fine here. Continue with your overpairs.
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Old 07-11-2018, 01:20 PM   #6
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Re: 2/5: How to exploit players who raise for information?

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Originally Posted by MikeStarr View Post
Why do you think they were raising for information? Both examples are of overpairs on paired boards. Maybe they thought they were ahead and raised for value?
I agree they are rarely raising for information. I see TP hands do this all the time. However, I think it is more of trying to get the hand to end while they believe they are ahead. Humans weigh loss twice as heavily as potential gain. They'd rather win a $50 pot now than to win a $100 pot on the turn if there is any risk to winning. It is why you see people bomb a FD board rather than bet enough to make calling with a FD a mistake.
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Old 07-11-2018, 06:05 PM   #7
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Re: 2/5: How to exploit players who raise for information?

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I agree they are rarely raising for information. I see TP hands do this all the time. However, I think it is more of trying to get the hand to end while they believe they are ahead. Humans weigh loss twice as heavily as potential gain. They'd rather win a $50 pot now than to win a $100 pot on the turn if there is any risk to winning. It is why you see people bomb a FD board rather than bet enough to make calling with a FD a mistake.
I agree, but Ill also add that when OOP, it can be a better play to go ahead and raise to take it down now rather than let an A or K hit the turn and have to guess whether or not the other guy has it when he bets or is bluffing a scare card.

Good aggro players could bet any big over card in position on the turn and easily outplay you if you dont take the pot down now with vulnerable over pair hands. The better you are overall and better you are at reading people, the less this applies to you.
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Old 07-11-2018, 09:52 PM   #8
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Re: 2/5: How to exploit players who raise for information?

BTN's line at this stack depth is consistent with a super nutted hand or button clicking with an overpair. If you have a read that BTN has a fold button, jamming with a BDFD would be okay some of the time but folding is the right play in this spot IMO.

IME players who bet or raise "to see where they're at" when in low SPR situations will still call off a large percentage of the time.

edit: playing deeper, like 200bb+ effective, the flop raise more often is a ploy to get you to slow down on later streets. They have SDV and want to get to showdown as cheaply as possible. That's where you could go b/3 to get folds on later streets from 99-JJ.
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Old 07-11-2018, 11:40 PM   #9
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Re: 2/5: How to exploit players who raise for information?

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B/f is fine here. Continue with your overpairs.

When we call and continue with our overpairs, these nits just check back turn with their 99-JJ, and then fold to a river bet often or maybe call a small bet.

So they play perfectly against us.
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Old 07-11-2018, 11:51 PM   #10
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Re: 2/5: How to exploit players who raise for information?

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Originally Posted by momo_uk View Post
When we call and continue with our overpairs, these nits just check back turn with their 99-JJ, and then fold to a river bet often or maybe call a small bet.

So they play perfectly against us.
Then, continue with overcards, let them check the turn back and fire a big river bluff. There's no magic formula in poker. Make your reads and play accordingly.
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Old 07-11-2018, 11:52 PM   #11
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Re: 2/5: How to exploit players who raise for information?

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Originally Posted by momo_uk View Post
When we call and continue with our overpairs, these nits just check back turn with their 99-JJ, and then fold to a river bet often or maybe call a small bet.

So they play perfectly against us.
I don't think that is playing perfectly against hero. Playing perfectly is being able to occasionally go for a second or third barrel and get hero to fold a better hand while also calling off worse some percent of the time.

If they always raise c/f c/f, then hero can just call, barrel barrel
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Old 07-12-2018, 05:27 AM   #12
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Re: 2/5: How to exploit players who raise for information?

Quote:
Originally Posted by momo_uk View Post
When we call and continue with our overpairs, these nits just check back turn with their 99-JJ, and then fold to a river bet often or maybe call a small bet.

So they play perfectly against us.
When they raise and we can't beat TP, we fold. We can play perfectly against them. They make their cards a RIO hand. That isn't playing perfectly.
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Old 07-12-2018, 06:58 AM   #13
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Re: 2/5: How to exploit players who raise for information?

There are 2 types of players that raise for information:
1) The players that plan to fold to a reraise.
2) The stations that will call off their stack with TT when you 3bet jam an 885 flop.

If the player falls into the first category, then you should 3bet the flop relentlessly. For example: if you're 1k deep, you bet 40, they raise to 100, you can reraise to 225 with complete air and just print money.

If the player falls into the second category, then just 3bet jam everytime you have a fairly strong hand like JJ+ and fold the rest. You might be folding a lot, but the few times you have it, you'll win more than enough to compensate for those disciplined folds you made earlier.
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Old 07-12-2018, 07:07 AM   #14
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2/5: How to exploit players who raise for information?

Why not just play proper poker? In your 885 example, if V has a hand like JJ-99, we can still profitably call with what we think is 2 overs, so probably AJ+ because his ~min raise makes us only need 18% equity. Obv also call with overpairs. If they are only doing this with min raises, the minimum defense frequency is probably going to be fairly high, on our part, so we should piece off other parts of our range, like BDFDs, SDs, hands that can give us equity ott
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Old 07-12-2018, 07:27 AM   #15
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Re: 2/5: How to exploit players who raise for information?

If they raise all of their overpairs otf what happens when they call?
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Old 07-12-2018, 08:09 AM   #16
johnnyBuz
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Re: 2/5: How to exploit players who raise for information?

Quote:
Originally Posted by momo_uk View Post
When we call and continue with our overpairs, these nits just check back turn with their 99-JJ, and then fold to a river bet often or maybe call a small bet.

So they play perfectly against us.
Ok then bet/call your overcards and then bet river big when they x back turn.

If you’ve already solved this one why are you posting the thread?
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Old 07-12-2018, 08:22 AM   #17
MikeStarr
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Re: 2/5: How to exploit players who raise for information?

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Originally Posted by MikeStarr View Post
Then, continue with overcards, let them check the turn back and fire a big river bluff. There's no magic formula in poker. Make your reads and play accordingly.


Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnyBuz View Post
Ok then bet/call your overcards and then bet river big when they x back turn.

If you’ve already solved this one why are you posting the thread?
Oh ****! JohnnyBuz and I agree on something. The world may end today.
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Old 07-12-2018, 09:17 AM   #18
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Re: 2/5: How to exploit players who raise for information?

Haha I read yours after I posted mine. Thought you were gonna call me out for my snarky tone.
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Old 07-12-2018, 09:24 AM   #19
momo_uk
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Re: 2/5: How to exploit players who raise for information?

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Originally Posted by 6bet me View Post
There are 2 types of players that raise for information:
1) The players that plan to fold to a reraise.
2) The stations that will call off their stack with TT when you 3bet jam an 885 flop.

If the player falls into the first category, then you should 3bet the flop relentlessly. For example: if you're 1k deep, you bet 40, they raise to 100, you can reraise to 225 with complete air and just print money.

If the player falls into the second category, then just 3bet jam everytime you have a fairly strong hand like JJ+ and fold the rest. You might be folding a lot, but the few times you have it, you'll win more than enough to compensate for those disciplined folds you made earlier.


These are category 1 players, the problem is we’re not 1k deep very often vs them. It’s usually just 400-500, so 3betting to say 225 commits a huge chunk of our stack.
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Old 07-12-2018, 09:25 AM   #20
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Re: 2/5: How to exploit players who raise for information?

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Originally Posted by Eholeing View Post
If they raise all of their overpairs otf what happens when they call?

They’re more nutted or draw-heavy.
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Old 07-12-2018, 09:34 AM   #21
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Re: 2/5: How to exploit players who raise for information?

I dont agree in those examples they were raising for information, but if these players are giving you trouble enough for you to post about it here, then they are outplaying you and are probably better then you. The best response is try to avoid them as much as possible, play smaller pots with them when you cant avoid them....but all the while you should be watching every move they make to get better reads and learn how to beat them.
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Old 07-12-2018, 07:25 PM   #22
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Re: 2/5: How to exploit players who raise for information?

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Originally Posted by johnnyBuz View Post
Ok then bet/call your overcards and then bet river big when they x back turn.



If you’ve already solved this one why are you posting the thread?

Oh cmon.. I haven’t solved anything.. I’m just trying to figure out if what I’m thinking is correct and if any of you agree with it..
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Old 07-13-2018, 11:03 AM   #23
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Re: 2/5: How to exploit players who raise for information?

If you think he doesn’t raise 8x then call and lead any A/K/Q turn. If turn checks through then pick hands with relevant blockers to the top of his calling range and jam as a bluff with 8x or better for value. If he bets small on turn trying to buy a cheap showdown and you pick up a BDFD then jam as a semi bluff along with 8x or better.
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