Oh yeah... my bad. I did it quick and thought I had it right. I'll rebuild it in a bit.

Yeah... I thought that was what you meant at first. That you'd rather not continue in a "thin" spot when you can be playing for big pots vs. Asians.

But I just can't get my mind around that this is a thin spot. And so I supposed that maybe you simply misread the OP.

I didn't mean to put words in your mouth, as it were.

Sorry to get all meme-y on you, but please tell me more about how fish don't overplay top pair. I think assuming a fish folds TP to one bet is pretty preposterous, and as I alluded to in a previous post, if he does he probably isn't a fish and you should try to change tables.

My point wasn't so much that the fish will necessarily be stacking off with 8x here but that he has a lot of weakish hands that he'll call one bet with and even in the worst case scenario that he never stacks off with any of them, we only need 38% (getting 1.6:1) going HU vs. BB when he folds.

The logical extension of your reasoning here is that we need to check/fold.

What's even the point of betting if no one - not even the gambly stationy villain - is calling us with worse, i.e. a range of hands that gives us value?

If his calling range is the range you're suggesting, this is just a check/fold.

Think about that. That doesn't really add up, does it?

I think a lot of players here would benefit from reading Tommy Angelos article on the grey areas in poker. Arguing over such close decisions is a pure waste of energy.

We have seen it before many times that assumptions will be different between players and we live and die individually with them. The beauty of a one man to himself sport.

I fold here. Countless hours spent talking this spot with other high level players and mathematical work urge me to fold since we overall do not give as wide of range for V to chk raise on the flop. The freq. of what the V will always do vs the % amt. that villain will "sometimes" do, is just not big enough for me. But that is me. And in my own poker reality it has worked well for me since so many villains show their hands pathetically allowing us to see results. And results DO matter after seeing enough trials results.

I dont think though that it is any landslide victory or loss no matter which we decide to do, which is the essence of this reply. Arguing over who is right or wrong here is for sure just a waste of space in my opinion.