Villain 1 ($750): Late 30s...I've played with him at least a handful of times in this weekly, invitation-only, underground game. From MP and later he openraises or raises 1-2 limpers at least 50% of the time, and he is willing to play nearly ATC. He takes down a number of pots with his PF raises or with the follow-up c-bets, and he also is prone to limp-calling with speculative hands in order to gambool and/or donk-bet boards that appear to have missed the PF raiser. He's not a complete spewtard on later streets, although I have seen him make some pretty thin value bets/calls over the month or so that I've been in this game. He's drinking beer and watching the football game, although he doesn't seem drunk. He's actually down so far this session, since he bought in for the $1000 max.

Villain 2 ($200): I've played with him a few times in another underground room that spreads only 1-1 games. He seems like a basic ABC/TAGfish. He bought in for only $200, and he appears to have about as much money as when he sat down. Earlier in the evening he flatted from MP against my EP raise, and when we were HU and I c-bet 2/3 pot on a 974r board, he raised AI, causing me to fold my AQo.

Hero ($575): 50 year old male whom the Villain likely sees as a somewhat nitty TAG. I've 3-bet on two occasions from the SB against his open raises; on one occasion he folded the turn after a loose-passive player called my turn bet on a J-high board, and on another occasion I check-folded after whiffing the flop vs. the 4 callers to my PF 3-bet.


2-5 (8 players)...folded to Villain 1 in HJ who raises to $20...folded to Hero who flats on the BTN with K K. Although I would usually 3-bet this at least 75% of the time, I could see that the TAG in the SB was preparing to fold, and I wanted to avoid blowing the Villain off of his hand (while keeping my hand somewhat disguised)...after the SB folded, the short-stacked BB called.

Flop ($60) 3 players
Q 6 4

BB checks, HJ checks, Hero bets $40, both players call.


Turn ($183) 3 player
Q 6 4 3

BB checks, HJ bets $100, Hero...???


Obviously, folding is super weak and raise/folding seems ******ed given the stack sizes. Consequently, should Hero:

1) Call $100, which keeps me from being committed but places me in no-man's land on many river cards?

2) Raise to $275-300 (and call if Villain pushes)?

3) Raise AI?

I'd call and keep his range wide. Based on descript, appears he would have c-bet a positive flop so I view his turn lead as a probe. He may do the same on the river.

Raising likely folds worse. Can't put him on TP after his flop check. Probably can't raise/call given SPR, even though his call likely means XX > KK.

Pre - I'd still 3-bet since he called the other two times you did.

The reason we flatted was because V is pretty aggro and will over value his hand and or make moves post flop and or bet if he maintains the initiative right?

So if that is more or less the case, then optimal line here is to just call him down, especially since our hand is underrepped.

Raising blows him off of all of his air or inferior hands

so just call him down and we can think about raising river for value...

EDIT: Only valid reason to raise is if we are sure raising induces him to spazz (which can be the case against some ego maniacs if we min-ish raise...)

3-bet pre smaller if you're worried about him folding. $55 sounds about right.

I would just flat and re-evaluate river. Flatting also lets V2 stack off more easily with Qx.

I'd rather flat if action folded to us and we were the BB. I really don't want the blinds coming along for cheap and playing a high SPR pot multiway. BB doesn't seem the type to squeeze either.

As played your best option is calling to keep Villain's range wide. His line reps zero hands we lose to and raising will fold out all of his trash. When you flat pre you're setting up a passive line to let Villain make betting mistakes. Don't stray from the plan now.

A bit surprised at the replies so far.

1. Preflop: You claim you have history with this Villain. He's called your 3bets twice and has not folded to any of them yet. Given this dynamic, why on earth are you not 3betting? You miss so much value. If you 3bet from the button, this LAG might assume that you are making a play at him and could even 4bet you (or check/raise bluff the flop) with worse. Give him a chance to make a big mistake and 3bet. By the way, my logic has nothing to do with wanting to "limit the field". That's silly. I'm raising purely for value here.

2. On the flop: I mean, I guess our hand is too strong not to bet, because we could get called by the shortstack, but the alarm bells are going off for me when the LAG, who raised preflop, doesn't c-bet (like he probably normally would) but also overcalls the flop. Also, the reason we called preflop was to let the LAG hang himself. If this were heads-up, I'd consider checking back.

3. On the turn: someone else has already claimed that "he reps nothing that beats you". But what is he representing at all? Does he play top pair this way? Does he play diamond draws this way? The reason I'm asking is because this lines up exactly with how bad LAGs play flopped sets. He raises preflop because he "needs to be aggressive", but then when he flops the set he's suddenly afraid of everyone folding, so he goes into trap mode. He calls the flop, then when the turn brings more draws he springs to life and bets for value.

I'm not saying this has to be a set, but what I am saying is that this could definitely be a strong hand. It could be 75s too--that's another hand that makes sense here. Meanwhile, I'm having a hard time coming up with very many hands that a LAG does this with that we beat. What doesn't he c-bet with that he still feels comfortable betting the turn with in a protected pot? (Maybe Qx?) I'd want a solid answer to this question before continuing on the turn.

I'm also pretty concerned that we could be behind. I guess hands that somewhat make sense are 63s and 43s. Maybe 56s? 78cc? 52s? QQ somewhat makes sense. Whatever it is, Qx seems highly unlikely.

This really seems like the wrong spot to not 3 bet pre if you've already attacked him twice and been called twice.

Question - would villain expect you to bet flop with a flush draw?

FWIW I really don't like raising turn.

"He's not a complete spewtard on later streets, although I have seen him make some pretty thin value bets/calls over the month or so that I've been in this game."

"the Villain likely sees (hero) as a somewhat nitty TAG"

These two reasons make me want to raise the turn. There should be a decent number of big drawing hands in villain's wide opening range that would check-call the flop and donk the turn. If villain does hold a seriously inferior hand how many river cards will he bluff (given hero's call ott will look strong)?

Very much agreed. I have made OP's play before and ... it has cost me $$.

This is great. 3 bet pre. AP flat to keep his bluffing range in and the pot small

Agree but I wouldn't raise river for value

I'd say it's more likely 56, 67, Axcc, somewhat 57s, 44,66,QQ. Chucking out a hunge (100) into that pot with his tendencies - I've tended to notice as a less calculated - more buyingthepot kinda bet with my experience over time. I'd see like a $120-$130 more often with the decent part of his range. That's a small factor but all the more reason to call and eval river. I'd prob call any non 7 or 5 river if it's a 2/3 PSB or less. A backdoor club is kinda hard to evaluate even though it can be easily in his range.

I certainly think that a lot can be said for taking the standard line of 3-betting, although I wouldn't base this simply on the fact that he called my two prior 3-bets this session when I was in the SB (versus this hand when I have the button).

Given all of the above, I did decide to raise the turn to $300, after which the BB folded and the Villain pushed AI, which I reluctantly called.

The good ol' 52s.

As played flat the turn bet if you don't have a read he hit something.

Not 3betting pre is why this is a harder decision than it has to be, and regardless we are in no man's land OTT and OTR. As others said, if you're that worried about him calling then 3 bet smaller.

I have to disagree here and definitely give Vernon props for spotting something I missed.

the fact that V called your 3-bets in this session when you were in the SB or OOP is a great indicator that we should without a doubt 100% 3-bet him while on the button.

Our range on the BTN is going to be a hell of alot wider than our range from the the blinds...

If our villain has called our 3-bets earlier then why on earth wouldn't we 3-bet him when we are monster???

Just sayin. Given that V has called our 3-bets earlier in the session, I'm 100% 3-betting him here preflop in this spot AINEC...

It isn't even necessarily that our range is wider when we're on the button. It's that this LAG will assume that it is. That's what's really important. If the LAG is gambling with us when he expects us to have a narrow range, he is certainly also going to gamble when he expects us to have a wider range.

Call turn, ship good rivers as played

But wtf at not 3b, especially if you've one it 2x, and how you should adjust is by 3b even wider.

Most lags are just loose spewy call stations.

Not 3betting here or even not 3b ATos, is really bad.