I've been playing with V on and off for a few years in a 2/5 home game. In a game full of marks, V is one of the bigger ones. He is a genius-level payoff wizard but he can also be aggressive and spewy at times. If I have a big hand against him I go for max value. Overall he's pretty good for the game.

My image is that of a borderline hyper-aggressive player who steals pots left and right. In reality, I play a pretty TAG style with an occasional bluff thrown in but I just value bet a lot, sometimes to the point where I value-own myself. V also basically never believes me. He always thinks I'm bluffing.

V has about $1300 in front of him. He has me covered by maybe $100.

V opens UTG for $25. He hesitated when he did it like he wasn't really sure he should or not. I think he was trying to decide between limping and raising. I didn't think he had a strong hand. A couple of people called as it's a very loose game. I was one or two off the button and looked down at KK. I raised it to $125. It folded around to V who 4-bet me to $380 pretty quickly. I thought about it for a while. I didn't think he had aces - if he did, and my read was way off, he was going to stack me anyway - and if he was spewing I didn't want to shut him down. So I finally settled on a call.

Flop: ($800) A88

Villain SNAP shoves for the rest of his stack. I have about $900 left and he covers.

Hero's thought process was that it's really difficult to put V on AK with so many blockers out there. There are only 6 combos left of AK. I just couldn't see him showing up with many aces. I don't know if he does that with AQs or not. I don't think he rips it in if he has aces full either. Obviously I'm completely discounting any 8 in his hand.

I thought it was most likely he had QQ, hoped that I didn't like the ace out there, and panic-shoved. Am I just being a massive station by wanting to call here?

Probably fold as played


Like a shove preflop., if he doesn't believe you when you get good hands just get the money in pre until he starts believing you. Then once he believes you, you can get fancy. No reason to do that on this one.

Yes. He's not 4-betting you with a hand that doesn't contain an Ace. Whether it be AA, AK, AQs or a suited wheel A as a bluff. The only other hand that would 4-bet you without an A is the other combo of KK. So if he has any spazz here on the flop, you're just calling to chop as a best case scenario.


Fwiw, I've been donk shoved into on the flop by a guy holding the nuts in a 4-bet pot very recently. It's pretty lol, but I've seen it so you can't discount it.

I feel like you described this guy as a POW so not sure if he is barreling here with too much air; Like you said it would probably have to be QQ turned into a bluff? which would make no sense bc in a 4bet pot he's most likely just going to get snapped by AK/AQ; if he's capable of turning a lot of hands in his range into bluffs then it's not that bad of a call

I think we can make post flop easier to play if we 4bet this pre-flop; create a lower spr situation on the flop; I know you want him to stay involved with his bluffs but he did open UTG and then 4bet you so this looks very strong

IDK man he 4b 1/3 eff stacks pre. I really don't thing the guy who never believes you is folding any part of his 4b range save maybe suited ace wheel combos. Pre should probably be a jam.

Ap I guess I would fold but I get why you want to see it.

Lets be honest...none of us knows what to do. You were there. You know the guy. You know the way he plays certain hands. You're the one looking at him and his mannerisms. There's no way to correctly answer this on a forum like this.

Ok lets assume this guy has QJs or JTs (with or without clubs). If this guy's plan was to 4-bet bluff you and then ship any flop when called than this guy is BURNING heaps of money long term with this strategy. All we have to do is dodge an Ace and the 5% chance he spikes 2 pair and we are massive favorite to win his stack.


How often are we giving this guy a suited broadway here? Gotta be 5% max, given this is a full ring game with little to no 3-bet/4-bet dynamics going on.


We can't call here on the longshot chance that this guy is playing back at us. It's simply a long term losing strategy to do this. Pure gambling.

Well, OP has been playing with the guy for 5 years so he should know if the guy is capable of not having an ace here.

I agree its kind of a "soul read" spot, but sometimes it takes an outsiders perspective to generate a clear consensus on the right play.

My perspective is that we can fold here because long term this is a losing play to call. This would be my thought process in game even if I kinda had a hunch my opponent was bluffing me.


If V turns over 7 2 then Im not going to be mad, Im going to think to myself that he got extremely lucky he flopped an A, because with any other flop I would have stacked him, given how garbage his plan was.

There's no way we can deviate from our winning strategy due to fluke occurrences our opponents are going to be batsh*t unpredictable in spots where V's are usually face up.

All of this.

I can tell you at my tables/games, V's range is weighted like 90% AA here, 8% AK/QQ and 2% some random spazz. Against those weights/range, we're crushed and it might even be a nitty fold pre.

Also your read on yourself is way off.

There's no way both of these can be true. You might be perceived less tight when you run good, because you raise more hands, but there's no way a low stakes TAG would ever be perceived as a hyper-LAG.

Yeah like I've been in this spot before and against most it's a snap fold. Against some it's time to give them loose action.

Folding never. He was snap shoving any flop under any circumstance which is just fine for a player who isn't sophisticated enough to play well post in 4bet pots. You just have to be good enough to get there if you're behind somehow.

+1. Unless he has been seen 4 betting light, he just doesn’t have enough As or 8s

Yes he's capable of not showing up with an ace. Like I said, he does not believe me so he perceived my 3-bet as weak and he 4-bet me as a result.

I ended up calling. The board ran out J 3.

He showed 10-8 offsuit and I scooped it with a flush.

Then I got berated. He claimed he outplayed me and all I ever do is get lucky on him.

I maintain it was a reasonable call even though I was hopelessly behind in this particular spot. I don't know what his plan was if he didn't flop two pair or better. I guess check-fold or bet-fold?

You could make this argument about literally every single thread in any live poker strat forum. If you're going to post completely obvious things like this that don't add anything of value whatsoever to the thread, why do you even bother? You're little more than a poorly disguised troll.

As for the other troll, I'm very much aware of my image. Thanks for your opinion though.

Why such a big raise to 125 initially? Flop is a fold vs nonmaniacs.

Because V is the spot so it works in practice. In theory it’s also fine since he forces your 3b range to be pure value, so upsize.

I agree, this goes for most hands on here, but we can always add our own take to give him some different perspectives.

As it were, if I have KK on an ace high board facing a shove, it's no different to me than having k-6 on an A-6-2 board. You have middle pair. You want to go to war with this against a guy who you will beat and time again?

In my opinion there are better spots than this against this guy. Take your time and ask a few questions if you must, but at best I suppose he has a naked flush draw but that's probably being generous to yourself. The Ace from Space just can't ever make this an enjoyable hand to call off with.

Gotta punish this guy with a 5bet pre

Get a life dude. There are hardly any 4 bet pots in threads posted here. Every single thread here doesnt involve a maniac shoving $900 into an $800 pot in a 4 bet pot where you have a strong hand but theres an overcard on the board and villain can easily have the overcard.

Your response calling me a troll is uncalled for.

against this villain, im only flatting if I have ACES. but Kings + your read and his tendency to try and outplay you, im shoving here.

its so hard to flat here due to stack sizes if you call.

ap, pretty comfortable to fold here.

Congrats my man. You showed everyone what a big Monkey you are.