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Old 05-20-2018, 05:03 PM   #1
HawkesDave
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2/5 Getting Value from SB with Set/FH

Hero ($700): TAG image currently. Getting a lot of my lower end LP opening range in EP which I've been folding and getting my best hands in the blinds. Haven't had a chance to open much so I definitely appear tight. Minimal 3bet opportunities. I've taken advantage of my image to make a few bluffs but none against the two Vs in question. Showdowns pretty much all winners. Very clean looking image right now which is why my bluffs are pretty much all getting through.

V1 ($350): Loose/bad fish. Calls too much pre and post. Losing medium sized pots getting sticky with weak top pair/middle pair hands. I've seen him reload about 3 times already. I've seen him shove flush draws with 1/2 overs 3 times and won 2 of them. HH: About 15 mins earlier I had KK on the BTN and after this V limps in EP I raise to $25. SB calls, BB calls, this V calls with only $100 behind. Flop is 875r, checks to me and I cbet $50, two folds and V shoves his $100 and has 96cc.

V2 ($1300ish): Super Loose/Aggressive. Playing way too many hands and playing OOP to raises. Seems to have no positional awareness whatsoever.
VPIP probably 50%. Very wide range. Squeezes with Q6s one hand from the SB and then non-sensically 3bet squeezes an MP raise from the BB with QJs the next hand. Just completely strange plays. Doesn't seem terrible but definitely not playing winning poker. Seems like an action junkie.

On to the hand:

V1 limps UTG+1, V2 limps MP, I complete my SB with 33 and the BB checks.

Flop ($22)
632

Hero leads for $15. BB folds, V1 calls, V2 min-raises to $30. Hero considers raising but with my image I'm afraid of scaring them away. More importantly, I'm actually targeting V1's chips here (I don't think he's flatting a flush draw here twice), as V2's range is so wide that I don't consider him too relevant at this point. I decide to flat and, sure enough, V1 comes along.

Turn ($112)
2

Hero checks. V1 checks. V2 bets $55 (Small bet sizing vs. his norm. He's been pretty consistently betting 60-70%). Again, I'm tempted to raise but I just don't see what they can call here besides 54 or an unlikely 2. I'm hoping V1 check-raise squeezes over top so I can try to double-up against V2 if he calls or re-shoves, but after Hero calls V1 also just calls.

River ($277)
J

Flush doesn't fill, unfortunately. Hero?
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Old 05-20-2018, 05:25 PM   #2
QuantumSurfer
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Re: 2/5 Getting Value from SB with Set/FH

Vs described players, I think the flop is an easy raise. In general, people continue much wider OTF than OTT. Vs bad players and action junkies, I feel like the most straight forward plays work the best. If you 3b flop ~$75, you really think you're gonna fold out much? If they have really weak holdings, we're not going to make much from them later anyway. Not sure why we're trying to target the short-stack's chips when there's a villain in the hand that has us covered. That's where the real $ is.

As played, I think I bomb river ~1/2 pot.
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Old 05-20-2018, 05:25 PM   #3
momo_uk
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2/5 Getting Value from SB with Set/FH

$150.

Canít risk letting it check through.
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Old 05-20-2018, 05:36 PM   #4
Joey913
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Re: 2/5 Getting Value from SB with Set/FH

$200. You could easily get looked up by someone who thinks you missed your flush draw and you say V1 is making a lot of loose calls.
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Old 05-20-2018, 05:53 PM   #5
HawkesDave
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Re: 2/5 Getting Value from SB with Set/FH

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Originally Posted by QuantumSurfer View Post
Vs described players, I think the flop is an easy raise. In general, people continue much wider OTF than OTT. Vs bad players and action junkies, I feel like the most straight forward plays work the best. If you 3b flop ~$75, you really think you're gonna fold out much? If they have really weak holdings, we're not going to make much from them later anyway. Not sure why we're trying to target the short-stack's chips when there's a villain in the hand that has us covered. That's where the real $ is.
I agree with this, and would almost always 3b the flop here in 99 out of the 100 games I normally play in, but my image today was just ridiculously "has it" and I just felt it was so risky to overplay the flop with the strong likelihood that they'd just fold behind on me. Un-raised pot, not the greatest board to hit many limp ranges, and a calling station in V1 who isn't playing the hand like he has two hearts. I felt like V2's range was pretty weak and he's just so wide here. I wanted him to overplay his hand a bit, but the river brick made me think I had to change gears since nothing really got there.
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Old 05-20-2018, 06:00 PM   #6
WereBeer
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Re: 2/5 Getting Value from SB with Set/FH

Raise somewhere before the river. I get that we risk blowing villains off hands but when we have two bad players who call too much and we hold the effective nuts, I think failing to get stacks in is the bigger risk.
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Old 05-20-2018, 06:13 PM   #7
HawkesDave
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Re: 2/5 Getting Value from SB with Set/FH

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Raise somewhere before the river. I get that we risk blowing villains off hands but when we have two bad players who call too much and we hold the effective nuts, I think failing to get stacks in is the bigger risk.
V1 calls too much. V2 just plays too loose pre. V2 is aggressive post but he's not a calling station.

I don't think I can get away with a turn raise, as I'm in the SB and the board is 6322. Just hits my range way too hard. You would have made the flop $75, all things considered? Even with my super strong "got it" & tight image? I had to look totally ABC to these guys at the time.

Spoiler:
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Old 05-20-2018, 08:11 PM   #8
Shai Hulud
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Re: 2/5 Getting Value from SB with Set/FH

If you want to get stacks in you have to bet larger and raise sometimes. Don't rely on others to do this unless they're certified maniacs.

I would overbet the flop. Say 20. They will still play pretty much the same because stacks are deep and in absolute terms 20 dollars is nothing.

AP 3-bet the min raise IMO. People don't raise/fold much.

Calling is not terrible but you really need to lead the turn (say 100) or x/r to 150ish.

AP...you got minraised OTF which is usually pretty strong. An OP minimum or 54. Maybe a combo draw but I expect those hands raise larger. Minraises are weighted toward made hands a lot. So OTR villain probably has a made hand and very likely all 16 combos of 54. I would just bomb it like close to PSB maybe even shove if we think he can't fold 54 when the flush draw bricked.
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Old 05-21-2018, 09:19 AM   #9
HawkesDave
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Re: 2/5 Getting Value from SB with Set/FH

Ok, hang on. I gotta slow this down a bit. I mean, obviously, I want to play for stacks with the effective nuts, but that's not always a realistic possibility for 150bbs in an unraised pot where your opponents are more likely to have weak hands than strong ones. V2 has almost 0 overpairs here. He's not limping his overpairs pre. It's possible he has maybe 77 or 88 but that's about it. The vast majority of his range is going to be pair+gutshot, flush draws and the occasional 2p (which I block a lot of realistic combos of). With my image being as strong as it is, I could very much be losing value here if they both fold to a flop 3b (which would look incredibly nutted) 2 out of 3 times.

V1 was obviously very weak, and put $85 into this hand the way it played out. If I raise the flop, I'm fairly certain (near 100%) that his money disappears, so we're ultimately talking about me having lost potentially $375 of total value in the hand starting from the moment I decided not to 3b the flop.

I don't think a turn raise is ever a good play here. I lead the flop and flatted the min-raise OOP. A turn check-raise, with my image, is going to fold out pretty much everything I beat besides maybe 54 (which he could even toss possibly) and 62/32 (one is unlikely and one I block).

So I think the ultimate decisions were the decision whether or not to 3b the flop and the river sizing as played. There's 16 combos of 54 that are obviously playing back to a 3b and for stacks on the flop. Someone questioned why I'm targeting V1 instead of V2 initially: V2's range is wide and weak here and V1 is a calling station. V2 can easily give me two streets of value betting 86o. It just so happened he had a hand I could have played for stacks with, although to be fair, I would have been significantly behind had the chips gone in on the flop. The question is whether, in the long run, I get more value keeping the fish in and keeping V2's range wide or by playing back here on the flop with my image, losing V1 and playing against flush/straight/rare 2p combos that can get V2 in for stacks. I'm having a hard time ranging him since he plays so many hands to decide what % of his range gets blown off the hand by a 3b. The higher that % is, the less optimal a flop 3b is with my nutted image.
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Old 05-21-2018, 10:02 AM   #10
AllTheCheese
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Re: 2/5 Getting Value from SB with Set/FH

tl;dr

3b the flop or at least lead the turn. There will not be much folding going on after you get raised on this flop, and ditto when this brick falls on the turn.
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Old 05-21-2018, 10:04 AM   #11
MikeStarr
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Re: 2/5 Getting Value from SB with Set/FH

Nobody is folding 54 to a small turn check raise. Most people wont fold quite a few other possible hands. People chase as little as gut shots on paired boards all the time.

Most min raises are monster hands. Once you hit the boat on the turn, Im playing the rest of the hand as if Im sure hes not folding.
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Old 05-21-2018, 10:15 AM   #12
matzah_ball
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Re: 2/5 Getting Value from SB with Set/FH

Gotta check river as played
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Old 05-21-2018, 10:26 AM   #13
Homey D. Clown
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Re: 2/5 Getting Value from SB with Set/FH

As played I'd check/raise river against this guy. The way you described him I don't see him checking behind. He has to have a lot of missed draws and random stuff that he will continue barreling with.

I would raise either flop or turn before that though.
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Old 05-21-2018, 02:01 PM   #14
shorn7
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Re: 2/5 Getting Value from SB with Set/FH

Quote:
Originally Posted by QuantumSurfer View Post
Vs described players, I think the flop is an easy raise. In general, people continue much wider OTF than OTT. Vs bad players and action junkies, I feel like the most straight forward plays work the best. If you 3b flop ~$75, you really think you're gonna fold out much? If they have really weak holdings, we're not going to make much from them later anyway. Not sure why we're trying to target the short-stack's chips when there's a villain in the hand that has us covered. That's where the real $ is.

As played, I think I bomb river ~1/2 pot.
Me too. As long as you size appropriately, they will call with pretty much everything except stone bluffs. I just think you want to start building a pot now so you can maybe get stacks in by the river.

AP, I totally bomb river to make it look like I missed front door hearts. I would say $225
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Old 05-22-2018, 01:46 AM   #15
adam levine
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Re: 2/5 Getting Value from SB with Set/FH

As played id overbet river as i think that they're calling range is fairly inelastic and you may even get looked up wider because of the missed front door flush draw. I would bet $325-375.
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