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Old 02-17-2019, 09:16 PM   #1
TheSamasaurus
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2/5 folding KK pre to OMC?

Old man coffee isn't playing many hands and likely rarely bluffing. He has 200bb, SB has 200bb and I have 100bb. SB is also older although not as bad never getting out of line.

Hero has KK in the BB

OMC opens to $20 from the CO
BTN folds
SB calls
Hero raises to $75
OMC raises to $350
SB folds
Hero...???
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Old 02-17-2019, 09:21 PM   #2
wait
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Re: 2/5 folding KK pre to OMC?

Not folding for a buyin and without specific reads. But in before everyone says snap fold like superstars cause it's a thread.
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Old 02-17-2019, 09:29 PM   #3
tmo1120
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Re: 2/5 folding KK pre to OMC?

You're not giving enough info to justify laying this, can you narrow the range to those 6 combos?

can he have AKos? can he have QQ?

what is your image at the table?

without more info , as a default , not gonna fold

the omc's I play with literally don't even 3b AK let alone 4b it so it's a valid question, just need more info before laying down K's
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Old 02-17-2019, 09:37 PM   #4
TheSamasaurus
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Re: 2/5 folding KK pre to OMC?

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Originally Posted by tmo1120 View Post
You're not giving enough info to justify laying this, can you narrow the range to those 6 combos?

can he have AKos? can he have QQ?

what is your image at the table?

without more info , as a default , not gonna fold

the omc's I play with literally don't even 3b AK let alone 4b it so it's a valid question, just need more info before laying down K's
I have been reasonably tight. OMC has played a number of hands limping in with garbage and hitting 2pair+ so he's up about $600 but I have never seen him 4 bet over the three hours we have been at the table together. Generally he folds anything but strong hands to aggression post flop.

I guess I really need to be asking myself if this guy ever does this with AK or QQ... I'm thinking the answer is probably no which is why im not liking shoving here. I'm a bit too used to playing online where I'm happily just jamming KK pre for 100bb against anyone from any position but live I probably should be more willing to make major adjustments.
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Old 02-17-2019, 09:42 PM   #5
SwolyswoND
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Re: 2/5 folding KK pre to OMC?

Never fold KK pre for 100 bbs. Never.
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Old 02-17-2019, 09:50 PM   #6
Jay S
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Re: 2/5 folding KK pre to OMC?

That description doesn't sound like a true OMC, just an old dude.

3 hours is ~90 hands. It's very possible he's just never had the chance to 4b with hands like AK/QQ/JJ. He's also opening from CO and we're squeezing, so ranges are wider. Don't think we've got the reads to fold KK here.

Edit: also... hold on, he isn't playing many hands, but he's played a number of hands limping in with garbage?
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Old 02-17-2019, 10:03 PM   #7
TheSamasaurus
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Re: 2/5 folding KK pre to OMC?

He's never raising pre and just playing tight passive, but he does limp in maybe 1/10 of the time and raises maybe 1/15 or less
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Old 02-17-2019, 11:02 PM   #8
Rm12488
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Re: 2/5 folding KK pre to OMC?

You know deep down itís aces. Guaranteed he ďhates ace kingĒ and heís flatting Queens. When he makes it 350 heís saying Iím going with it imo. Still, Iím not good enough to fold
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Old 02-18-2019, 12:06 AM   #9
KID777777
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Re: 2/5 folding KK pre to OMC?

Snap shove
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Old 02-18-2019, 12:16 AM   #10
hitchens97
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Re: 2/5 folding KK pre to OMC?

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Originally Posted by Jay S View Post
That description doesn't sound like a true OMC, just an old dude.
I feel this is a repeated problem in these threads. In my book Omc is playing typically less than 10pct of his hands. Raising range might be just JJ+ AKo and AKs and sometimes just QQ+.

Omc is not random old loose passive dude.
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Old 02-18-2019, 12:18 AM   #11
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Re: 2/5 folding KK pre to OMC?

A limping range of 10pct doesn't have a lot of garbage. What have you seen him limp in with?
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Old 02-18-2019, 12:21 AM   #12
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Re: 2/5 folding KK pre to OMC?

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Originally Posted by TheSamasaurus View Post
He's never raising pre and just playing tight passive, but he does limp in maybe 1/10 of the time and raises maybe 1/15 or less
So this is not an OMC. An OMC has typically less than 10pct VPIP.

Also what garbage have you seen him limp?
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Old 02-18-2019, 02:20 AM   #13
TheSamasaurus
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Re: 2/5 folding KK pre to OMC?

A2o 45o etc and then he folds to the raise after he limps like 85% of the time
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Old 02-18-2019, 02:25 AM   #14
TheSamasaurus
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Re: 2/5 folding KK pre to OMC?

this dude is an OMC

He only ever bets 1 street with TPTK, bets way too small when he does bet because he doesn't like playing big pots, and TBH probably flats with everything except kings and aces pre

one other notable hand he limp called a thirty dollar raise with A2o, then bet $20 into $120 on AK5 r, then turned a 2 for two pair and bet $30 into $160.

another hand he had AQ on AJ5, bet pre, checked flop in heads up pot, bet turn 40% then checked river OOP

hes also like 85 years old, takes thirty seconds to make every decision and literally wearing a tim hortons hat
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Old 02-18-2019, 02:29 AM   #15
wait
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Re: 2/5 folding KK pre to OMC?

Prolly stuff you should include in the first post bud
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Old 02-18-2019, 02:33 AM   #16
WereBeer
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Re: 2/5 folding KK pre to OMC?

I have a hard time folding KK for 100bb and I’m a massive nit. This looks like a spot where villains should be wider than AA, but you’ve described him as ancient man coffee, not even OMC. In game I probably just rip it in and then quietly punch myself in the balls when he rolls over the bullets.
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Old 02-18-2019, 04:16 AM   #17
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Re: 2/5 folding KK pre to OMC?

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Originally Posted by Rm12488 View Post
You know deep down itís aces. Guaranteed he ďhates ace kingĒ and heís flatting Queens. When he makes it 350 heís saying Iím going with it imo. Still, Iím not good enough to fold
I can find a fold against a player who has demonstrated that he will limp-call with AK and raise/call with QQ, especially if he perceives me as a tight player. It helps if he is also the sort of player who will just call with the second-nut flush on the river because he is afraid of the nut flush, demonstrating that he may only put in big raises with the nuts.

It doesn't matter if this guy is loose or not preflop. What matters is that he is passive. He could be super-loose, but also super-passive so he only 4bets with AA. He could play a super nitty range preflop, but players like that are sometimes over-ambitious when they do pick up a hand and jam it in too often with AK/JJ. So you can't fold this against a tight-aggressive or loose-aggressive player but you might be able to find a fold against a tight-passive or loose-passive player if you have sufficient data.

If you step away from the table and think about it, you can come up with a profile for players who only play the nuts aggressively and apply that to situations, not just when you have KK and run into AA, but when you have the second-nut flush and run into the nut flush or when you have a smaller boat against the nut boat or quads. Some people will just shrug and chalk it up to variance while noting that KK vs AA doesn't happen that often, but you can come up with a more general scenario of a very strong non-nut hand vs the nuts and you do run into that a bit more often, especially if you play in deeper-stacked games, so it should be worthy of your consideration. I don't think you are being the best player you can be if you think that is just a cooler and you were destined to go broke.
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Old 02-18-2019, 05:04 AM   #18
TheSamasaurus
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Re: 2/5 folding KK pre to OMC?

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Originally Posted by BDHarrison View Post
I can find a fold against a player who has demonstrated that he will limp-call with AK and raise/call with QQ, especially if he perceives me as a tight player. It helps if he is also the sort of player who will just call with the second-nut flush on the river because he is afraid of the nut flush, demonstrating that he may only put in big raises with the nuts.

It doesn't matter if this guy is loose or not preflop. What matters is that he is passive. He could be super-loose, but also super-passive so he only 4bets with AA. He could play a super nitty range preflop, but players like that are sometimes over-ambitious when they do pick up a hand and jam it in too often with AK/JJ. So you can't fold this against a tight-aggressive or loose-aggressive player but you might be able to find a fold against a tight-passive or loose-passive player if you have sufficient data.

If you step away from the table and think about it, you can come up with a profile for players who only play the nuts aggressively and apply that to situations, not just when you have KK and run into AA, but when you have the second-nut flush and run into the nut flush or when you have a smaller boat against the nut boat or quads. Some people will just shrug and chalk it up to variance while noting that KK vs AA doesn't happen that often, but you can come up with a more general scenario of a very strong non-nut hand vs the nuts and you do run into that a bit more often, especially if you play in deeper-stacked games, so it should be worthy of your consideration. I don't think you are being the best player you can be if you think that is just a cooler and you were destined to go broke.
this is what im thinking
there were a few factors that swayed me a bit... the fact that he had been limping a decent amount, and that he opened from a middle/later position, but honestly i dont think these factors change much. I just shrugged and put my money in because i had KK for one hundred bb but i think against this particular player it s a fold.

just to be clear, im obviously 4 betting all in for one hundred bb with KK against everyone , im just advocating not calling his 4 bet with kings

If you cant tell by now, he did have aces btw
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Old 02-18-2019, 10:37 AM   #19
hitchens97
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Re: 2/5 folding KK pre to OMC?

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Originally Posted by TheSamasaurus View Post
A2o 45o etc and then he folds to the raise after he limps like 85% of the time
Arghhh... I really think we need to get better definitions here, because no way in my world does an OMC play these hands. These guys just fold fold fold mainly waiting for a good hand.
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Old 02-18-2019, 12:17 PM   #20
tmo1120
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Re: 2/5 folding KK pre to OMC?

I think he is a Limp Happy Ultra Passive OG with a super narrow 4b range

the term OMC is abused imo, lets not just try and put people in boxes all the time, being specific will only help to gain clarity on the situation
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Old 02-18-2019, 05:11 PM   #21
hitchens97
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Re: 2/5 folding KK pre to OMC?

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Originally Posted by tmo1120 View Post
I think he is a Limp Happy Ultra Passive OG with a super narrow 4b range

the term OMC is abused imo, lets not just try and put people in boxes all the time, being specific will only help to gain clarity on the situation
Agreed, and we keep on having this issue. This is like the fourth time in 2 months.
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Old 02-18-2019, 11:40 PM   #22
kookiemonster
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Re: 2/5 folding KK pre to OMC?

I think it's a pretty easy fold, actually.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SwolyswoND View Post
Never fold KK pre for 100 bbs. Never.
lol
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Old 02-19-2019, 03:05 AM   #23
chopstick
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Re: 2/5 folding KK pre to OMC?

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Originally Posted by TheSamasaurus View Post
and literally wearing a tim hortons hat
<3 <3 <3
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