2/5
stacks
hero 400ish
v1 covers
v2 450

reads
v1 seems solid haven't really seen much has played a few big draws aggressively (pair+flush draw, straight+flush draws etc)
v2 solid havent really do much this session but on previous days is possible making moves
v3 text book calling station, will only bet when she got a big hand
hero running a little bad but seen as TAG/LAG

5 limpers
hero on the button with K8
sb completes
bb checks
pot about 35

flop
K85
v1 bets 25
v3 calls
v2 raises to 75
hero ???? I dont really want to call here as v1/v3 could be on a draw and didn't want to price them in, I thought that v1 and v2 are quite capable of raising with strong drawing hands.
hero raises to 155
v1 thinks about it for a good 3-4 minutes looking at stacks of both hero/v2 then he shoves
v3 moans then folds
v2 shoves
hero ?????
Can I find a fold here? I haven't really been in this type of spot before, I really dont know were I was at I am only really worried about 55 as I have the blockers for KK/88 and there was no preflop raise so am not worried about KK at all.
or is this a sight call and hope I am good and ride the variance
on another note is this the kinda hand I should be raising on the button with so many limpers???

Pre I would usually fold, even on the button, but with 5 limpers I'll take a cheep flop. Never raising over 5 limpers, as I'd have to bloat the hell out of the pot with a losing image, and my hand fares poorly against continuing ranges.

On the flop, raising is committing. I probably flat here and raise a safe turn. I think the extra money we get in from V1 and V3 calling with their draws pretty well negates the lost EV from letting them draw at a decent price, and keeps us from inflating the pot with the bottom of our raising range.

As played, bleh. V1's range is prob like 88,55,Kc9c-KcQc,K8s,76s, and one or two combos of missed limp/rr with AcAx. V2's is similar, maybe starting at KcTc and without the AcAx and 76s except 7c6c. Against those ranges, you are about 21%. Your call would be $240ish into a pot of $1245 (total), or 19.3% of the pot. You're getting the right price to call, but it's huge variance. Just flatting the first raise would have avoided this spot. Crying call, imo.

Are the villains in the blinds or were they limpers?

V1 in mp
V2 in lp too my right

Garick - only problem with flatting the flop raise is original flop bettor is still to act. If we flat and he 3bets what are we doing? Obviously it depends on size of his raise and how the raiser responds...

Am I being too nitty if I just fold to the flop raise? I figure when I'm limping crap hands behind lots of other limpers I'm looking for the nuts or to pick up a small pot if no one else wants it. I fold a lot of nice looking hands when I can easily see them being second best.

With an OOP bet into 5 players, a call and a raise and us trapped in between this has disaster written all over it.

We only put $5 in this pot, pretty easy for me to let that go.

I also wouldn't raise this hand vs 5 limpers. Limp or fold for me. Along with TT+ AQ+ would use larger broadway (AJ KQ/KJ) and maybe AT-A8 and QJ to raise a bunch of limpers if I thought there weren't any big hands hidden in amongst them, I thought they were all capable of folding and my image was tight/nitty. Ideally I don't want to see a flop unless I have TT+ AQ+.

I'd limp behind with 99-22 AXs (sometimes even ATs+) SC (0 and 1 gaps, large 2 gaps) suited Broadway and the occasional offsuit 0-gapper.

Occasionally I will limp behind KXs but there isn't really any nuts potential so I'm a bit wary of them.

Does that sound sensible to anyone?

I guess I'll work it backwards. As played, you've invested 40% of your stack so far, and you're getting a jillion to 1. Roll the dice and call.

Before that though, raising to 155 was crazy. If you're worried about draws being priced in, then just shove. You'll probably still get called by KcXc, which I guess is ok.

Before that, this hand is a fold or raise pre-flop. Limping stinks. I'd raise if I knew guys were playing fit or fold post flop and I could steal a pot with position and a somewhat playable hand that connects with a fair number of flops. Limping keeps the pot small, so when you do flop huge, it's super tough to get all the money in without turning your hand face up. If the flop comes two spades, and you flat a bet in position, and then the third spade comes and you start raising, are you getting paid off by one pair in a limped pot? Doubtful.

Money goes in easier when there is already money in the pot. Limping just sets you up to chase value in the most difficult ways possible. Raising here, with position, and initiative, will allow you to scoop enough uncontested pots to pay for the cost of the raise and then some. Beyond that, you'll make some value hands too, and when you do you can get paid off more often, by bigger bets, in bigger pots.

Yeah, I don't hate a fold, given the action. I'm used to some pretty passive games, so I could really easily fold if the original flop bettor raises behind and gets action/shove over if he gets all folds (given reads of aggro play of draws).

Call>fold>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>raise here, imo.

I'm raising preflop, although I don't feel strongly about it.

I'm shovelling money into the pot on this flop and feeling awesome about it. Folding anywhere in the hand seems insane to me, as the only reasonable hand we're behind is 55 and a somewhat discounted and blocked 88 and there are all kinds of sexy draws people can be going nuts with. Calling the initial raise planning to fold a club turn makes sense, but I don't think it does enough to punish someone getting aggressive with a naked flush draw.

I am shoving after the $75... calling seems terrible and a raise looks strong regardless.

This spot is really gross and seems like we have put a lot of $$ in ... with less than 100bbs here, I probably just call off. I would expect to see 55 often, but having the limited info that Vs are aggro with draws or capable of making moves... probably just sigh call it off.

Yeah, gross spot, but basically a must-call now. 55 and (discounted) 88 crush us. But villain ranges can easily have a misplayed AK, AcXc, Kcxc, K5, 85, 67, 6c7c, etc.

If the flop was rainbow, I could possibly find a fold. But there are just so many drawing hands that started panting when they see this flop...

Garrick - thanks.

As played I think I'd just shove the flop but I can see the advantages of calling and shoving non flush turns.

Spexdome re. Not limping: I only limp behind when the limpers are liable to call a reasonable raise and/or one of the limpers is liable to have a decent hand. Under those conditions I find I bloat the pot with a raise and then have little fold equity post flop. Cally limpers are usually bad enough that they lose a lot of chips if they make a decent hand and are usually be so passive that I can easily get to showdown cheaply with all my weak-middling hands.

I raise high card hands and large pairs when I think I can get it headsup. I throw in some raises with speculative hands bug they are maybe only a third of my raising range.

Clearly with really big hands i'm raising the cally limpers and don't mind getting called.

As played, I call, but it really looks as if V2 has 55. So many draws are possible, though. I probably would have folded pre. I would not have raised -- don't need this hand in a bloated pot, and that's what usually happens at these tables. Would have called the $75 and gone from there.

How do the limpers defend vs. raises? If they limp/fold somewhat frequently, then I'd make a pretty large raise here on the BTN (~$50).

On the flop, if you're 3-betting here I would just shove, $155 is just giving great odds to any drawing hands. As played, sigh-call given the odds that you're getting, not loving it but you're already invested 40% of your stack and you need less than 20% equity in this 3-way pot for a call to be correct.

Dude, I want at least 30% of your next session win

On the BTN:
... after 1 or 2 limpers, I'm raising.
... after 3 or more--shifting towars a limp.

Why?

I'm pretty sure you play in the Foxwoods/Mohegan Sun neighboorhood. Most of America's 1/2 is much more LP than you seem to experience.

Today I say AA limped/call under the gun, and the very next hand KK limped UTG by the same player (new player took empty seat, so he was UTG two hands in a row) and then c/c down on a QxxJT run out.

And when you raise enough to get to 1/2 callers, it is often 25+ in some games. In that case, any of these limp/callers who hits anything, even "dog poop" will call "because the pot's so big." Trust me, they hit "something," more than 20% of the time. If you get 3 callers, instead of the 1/2 you were aiming for, at least 71% of the time one or more of them will hit a pair or better.

When you're playing a solid value hand in a loose-passive game, that means you'll make money with value bets when this happens. When you're playing hands that will be dog crap yourself, you'll be burning your raise and your c-bet 71%+ (the draws will also often call) of the time that you don't flop your miracle.

Bottom line, your advocated style only works in certain game conditions. I use it in 2/5 games, but only at very specific 1/2 tables.

My comments to Ragequit were mostly generalities and not specific to this hand. But....see red below.

$18 is a standard open in many 1/2 games in the Midwest. Not only do my $15 raises not only win the blinds the first few times, they are often low for the table.

I'm glad to see you weren't talking about this specific hand (though if you want to discuss generalities instead of the hand the thread is about, you should 1) make it very clear and 2) limit the derail, and take it to another thread if needed.

On those few times I'm every overlimping K8s, it needs to be multi-mega way, I have position, effective stacks are at least 75BBs, and I'm flush-mining against particular players I've noted play any suited cards and will stack off with any flush in a limped pot. You will note that the very first reply in this thread is me saying I'd usually fold PF. However, if forced to play this hand at an average 1/2 table, I'd overlimp it before raising it. This situation barely meets my minimum criteria for an overlimp.

It does not meet my minimum criteria for raising.

2nd nut flush mining at 75BB's???? C'mon man. I'm not even gonna red-font you on this one. You know better.

Spexdome - I appreciate the continued effort to snap me out of my passive ways. I do wonder though whether the game i play in is just very well suited to my current style.

I'm uk based and most live players here play tournaments. Cash games are a bit rarer than in America. I play when there is a big afternoon tournament on and I aim to arrive just before the tournie players start to bust out in a big way. Many join the 1/2 cash games and just don't know how to play deepstacked. They limp in a lot and wont fold to big raises because they think they have huge implied odds but then they go ahead and stack off with any top pair.

Maybe it is too strange a table dynamic for others to draw any conclusions from but I find limiting my raises to big pairs and high card hands that can gii when they pair up is more effective than raising the speculative hands that need fold equity to go with their chance of hitting monsters.

Garrick - I like the tactic of targeting the players who love any suited cards. There are always at least a few of these guys at my game and they are a pretty reliable source of profit. In particular I love the ones who raise all there AX/broadway and limp the small suited hands. "sorry dude, that was an unfortunate cooler, couldn't be avoided, you played it well".

Flush over Flush is insanely rare. How often do you see it? Maybe once every 20 hours at a full table? That's 5000 hands!!

Making a flush by itself is over 100 to 1. Flopping flush over flush has got to be significantly slimmer. Mining for it at 75BB's is insane. you'll flop a flush draw about 20 times more often than you'll flop an actual flush, which means you're going to have to put in more chips quite a bit in order to hit that flush. So your average investment is going ot be something north of 1BB, and with only 75BB's left to play, a passive line with this hand would be a glaring leak. Plug it.

If you're going to play it, you need to be take the lead, and force other folks to react to you. 75BB's deep is a little shallow to mix it up with K8, but certainly KTs+, suited aces, suited connectors, pocket pairs, and the like are fine raising hands here.

If it's a tuesday afternoon at foxwoods, I raise this hand. If it's Friday night, I fold it. make sense?

This is an epic money-making scenario. Tighten your opening range, and start raising to $50 pre-flop

Where, exactly, are you getting 250 hands per hour live???