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Old 01-31-2018, 07:58 PM   #1
6bet me
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2/5 - Flop 2pr facing worst turn card in the deck

$2/$5, $500 deep. This is my very first hand at the table and I have no reads on anyone.

Hero is dealt T9o (no club)
Hero posts $5 CO
Hero checks option
SB completes
BB raises to $20
Hero calls $15
SB folds

Flop ($41, HU) is Td 9c 3c

BB Cbets $35
Hero raises to $130
BB calls $95

Turn ($290, HU) is Kc

BB checks
Hero ???
(We have $350 behind)

This is a horrible turn card... the flush got there, QJ got there, KK got there and hands like JJ, QQ and AA might be able to get away from this now... what do we do?
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Old 01-31-2018, 08:09 PM   #2
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Re: 2/5 - Flop 2pr facing worst turn card in the deck

I guess pre is okay, close to a fold though.

Don't like the raise on the flop given that you rep pretty much exactly T9o and maybe 33. You'd be raising T9s most likely, TT, 99, maybe 33 from the CO when folded to and folding the other 2p hands to the $20 raise so don't think you rep enough value to have a raising range on the flop.

Check turn for the reasons you mention. This doesn't just allow V to fire river either since if you have a raising range on the flop it probably includes nut flush draws which might check back turn
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Old 01-31-2018, 08:12 PM   #3
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Re: 2/5 - Flop 2pr facing worst turn card in the deck

fold pre. we're OOP and his range should be strong.
Raise otf is ok
b/f the turn like 115, FD's are only a small part of his range.
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Old 01-31-2018, 08:36 PM   #4
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Re: 2/5 - Flop 2pr facing worst turn card in the deck

Once you raise flop w 100bb you're locking this in as the bottom of your gii range even on woat turn. Only 3 of his combos have you dead, and he still might call with JJc/QQc/AAc and you can't just check back and let his bottom freeroll rivers. Also, if you're raising flop w this then you're also doing so frequently w all your draws that just got there - really though, what flop raise+turn checks can you have here to begin with at 100bi? Shove.
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Old 01-31-2018, 08:50 PM   #5
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Re: 2/5 - Flop 2pr facing worst turn card in the deck

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amanaplan View Post
Also, if you're raising flop w this then you're also doing so frequently w all your draws that just got there.
This sounds like a reason to check, now you're over-repping this hand.

I do agree you may get called by JJc, QQc, AAc. Buuut V can have all sets (maybe not 33) and a bunch of nut flushes too, maybe QJs depending on his playing style ... Note that OP is posting in the CO and SB is just completing so I'd be attacking this dead money preflop and would therefore have lots of suited Ax
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Old 01-31-2018, 09:00 PM   #6
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Re: 2/5 - Flop 2pr facing worst turn card in the deck

I encourage everyone to keep this discussion open before you look at the results... should we check back the turn, bet/fold, bet/call or overbet jam?

Results:
Spoiler:
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Old 01-31-2018, 09:09 PM   #7
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Re: 2/5 - Flop 2pr facing worst turn card in the deck

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Originally Posted by TheMacDads View Post
This sounds like a reason to check, now you're over-repping this hand.

I do agree you may get called by JJc, QQc, AAc. Buuut V can have all sets (maybe not 33) and a bunch of nut flushes too, maybe QJs depending on his playing style ... Note that OP is posting in the CO and SB is just completing so I'd be attacking this dead money preflop and would therefore have lots of suited Ax
He has no sets otf and it's just fine if he folds those ops on the turn. I don't think there are any checks on this card once going aggro otf, only shoves which are categorized under best-option play.
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Old 01-31-2018, 10:53 PM   #8
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Re: 2/5 - Flop 2pr facing worst turn card in the deck

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Originally Posted by TheMacDads View Post
This sounds like a reason to check, now you're over-repping this hand.

I do agree you may get called by JJc, QQc, AAc. Buuut V can have all sets (maybe not 33) and a bunch of nut flushes too, maybe QJs depending on his playing style ... Note that OP is posting in the CO and SB is just completing so I'd be attacking this dead money preflop and would therefore have lots of suited Ax
Play your range, not your hand. When you raise the flop you have all kinds of flush draws and QJ hands as well as two pairs and sets. There's zero chance you would check with those parts of your range, and it's not likely you check a set here either.
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Old 02-01-2018, 12:25 AM   #9
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Re: 2/5 - Flop 2pr facing worst turn card in the deck

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Originally Posted by SwolyswoND View Post
Play your range, not your hand. When you raise the flop you have all kinds of flush draws and QJ hands as well as two pairs and sets. There's zero chance you would check with those parts of your range, and it's not likely you check a set here either.
I am - I'm saying I don't want to take the bottom of our range and turn it into a bluff here on the turn.

We don't have to have one action here with our whole range. We can, for example, choose to check back this sort of hand and balance with some nut flushes. Shove everything else. Just an example
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Old 02-01-2018, 02:04 AM   #10
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Re: 2/5 - Flop 2pr facing worst turn card in the deck

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Originally Posted by TheMacDads View Post
I am - I'm saying I don't want to take the bottom of our range and turn it into a bluff here on the turn.

We don't have to have one action here with our whole range. We can, for example, choose to check back this sort of hand and balance with some nut flushes. Shove everything else. Just an example
It’s not a bluff and you can’t categorize every bet. Also, ck any flush is terrible. Flop raise locked in the action and that’s that.
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Old 02-01-2018, 02:52 AM   #11
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Re: 2/5 - Flop 2pr facing worst turn card in the deck

Call flop (I mean obviously raising is fine but calls seems better after pfr pots~)
Check turn back
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Old 02-01-2018, 02:23 PM   #12
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Re: 2/5 - Flop 2pr facing worst turn card in the deck

I'd B/F small OTT, for value vs. JJ+. He might have a hard time getting away from those hands ... no history. FD and QJ likely form a very small part of PFR range. If he has KK, nice catch.

Pre - I'd fold being the 1st hand at the table.

Flop - flat ~PSB.
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Old 02-01-2018, 03:14 PM   #13
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Re: 2/5 - Flop 2pr facing worst turn card in the deck

Do we ever think this V leads and b/f turn with KK obviously without a club even after getting raised on the flop not wanting say TcTx Tc9x to get a free chance at pulling ahead. This is a pretty tough spot but I think I b/f the turn and x river if called
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Old 02-01-2018, 03:56 PM   #14
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Re: 2/5 - Flop 2pr facing worst turn card in the deck

I think 1/2 PS b/f OTT is best here. I dont like a shove since I don't think we are called by worse often enough to make that +EV. But a check is awful too as V should be as scared of that turn card as us given our flop action. 1/2 pot charges some of his range to draw and may even get through if he holds AA, QQ AK no club.
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Old 02-01-2018, 04:20 PM   #15
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Re: 2/5 - Flop 2pr facing worst turn card in the deck

Never checking the turn back here, agree with b/f 115-120 ott
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Old 02-01-2018, 04:36 PM   #16
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Re: 2/5 - Flop 2pr facing worst turn card in the deck

I'm b/c turn personally. I'd only expect V to check-shove a few hands better than ours -- KK, AQcc, AJcc. It would be a bit unusual to see JQ in there after V's raise preflop.. Anyway, if V has JQ, they're likely to also have KQ and KJ (which might shove), as well as AA, or even QQ/JJ with Qc or Jc.... We have to bet turn to charge flush draws and hands like JJ/QQ... I think I'd go like 150 on turn. If V flats, we can probably find some folds if he shoves bad rivers.
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Old 02-01-2018, 04:39 PM   #17
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Re: 2/5 - Flop 2pr facing worst turn card in the deck

Alot of people think you aren't allowed to press the break pedal after you've pressed the gas.

But you are. Especially when the light turns red.
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Old 02-01-2018, 04:39 PM   #18
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Re: 2/5 - Flop 2pr facing worst turn card in the deck

With these stack sizes I would check back turn.
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Old 02-01-2018, 06:52 PM   #19
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Re: 2/5 - Flop 2pr facing worst turn card in the deck

Check back turn because you will only be called by better hands if you bet
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Old 02-01-2018, 06:56 PM   #20
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Re: 2/5 - Flop 2pr facing worst turn card in the deck

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Originally Posted by flopturntree View Post
Check back turn because you will only be called by better hands if you bet
Do u think he would fold AcAx/QcQx to <1/2 PSB?
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Old 02-01-2018, 10:41 PM   #21
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Re: 2/5 - Flop 2pr facing worst turn card in the deck

Quote:
Originally Posted by Avaritia View Post
Alot of people think you aren't allowed to press the break pedal after you've pressed the gas.

But you are. Especially when the light turns red.
The light's yellow... floor it.
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Old 02-01-2018, 11:55 PM   #22
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Re: 2/5 - Flop 2pr facing worst turn card in the deck

Checking behind turn would be criminal. Criminy, Villain could have AcTx with this line and he's sure as **** not folding the turn.
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Old 02-01-2018, 11:56 PM   #23
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Re: 2/5 - Flop 2pr facing worst turn card in the deck

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amanaplan View Post
The light's yellow... floor it.
+1

People are assigning way too narrow a range to V ITT. And betting two pair here is not turning our hand into a bluff. Basically our entire flop raising range should be betting this turn for value.
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Old 02-05-2018, 03:05 AM   #24
TheMacDads
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Re: 2/5 - Flop 2pr facing worst turn card in the deck

Quote:
Originally Posted by SwolyswoND View Post
+1

People are assigning way too narrow a range to V ITT. And betting two pair here is not turning our hand into a bluff. Basically our entire flop raising range should be betting this turn for value.
Surely every time you bet the bottom of your range it's as a bluff? This is game theory talk, so V should accurately assign your range and know that this is the bottom of it and shouldn't call with anything worse. Not that game theory is very relevant ... just clarifying.

Here I would say that since our hand looks much stronger than it is, betting here is over-repping our hand
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Old 02-06-2018, 02:15 PM   #25
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Re: 2/5 - Flop 2pr facing worst turn card in the deck

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Originally Posted by TheMacDads View Post
Surely every time you bet the bottom of your range it's as a bluff? This is game theory talk, so V should accurately assign your range and know that this is the bottom of it and shouldn't call with anything worse. Not that game theory is very relevant ... just clarifying.

Here I would say that since our hand looks much stronger than it is, betting here is over-repping our hand
Not sure where you get that from. If our flop raising range is all 2P+ hands for value and all draws (which end up completing on this turn), then we don't need to bluff on the turn. Our entire value range is well ahead of Villain's continuing range. Villain should likely overfold on the turn to this action, but LLSNL villains don't do that.
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