2/5 9 handed

Passive day-time game.

Eff stacks 600

Ep limps, MP limps, Hero in LP limps w/ 53dd, BTN limps, SB limps, BB checks.

Flop (30): Tc 6d 2h

Checks to EP who leads for 15, MP calls, Hero calls, BTN calls, blinds fold.

Turn (90): Qd

Checks to Hero...

Is it better to raise flop or float these passive players if we think BTN/Blinds aren't capable of squeezing after we flat. Is it safe to assume we can make enough from the pot to call with about 10% equity. Curious what you guys have been doing when you end up in spots like this.

Well, you're not going to profit much from a passive game by playing passively. I would avoid marginal situations in limped pots around 100BB. I'd rather raise or fold than overlimp. I open very liberally on my button in limped pots and I'd fire out a raise preflop more often than not.

As played, I also almost never try to bluff 3+ opponents. Your semi-bluff FE is very low. I'd just check and hope to bink something. You opponents call literally have anything in a limped pot. I'm not super thrilled if a diamond hits the river and someone bets.

Stack depth matters for low suited hands. I'd rather call an UTG raise with a suited-one gapper around 200BB deep. You need the massive IO to profitably play a garbage low hand like 53s.

fold pre and dont find yourself in spots like this. on turn bet 150. unless btn has QT everyone is going to fold. when you percieve weakness, attack!

Love the 35s in a limpfest 100+ deep. Flopping a gutter+backdoor is one of my favorite drawing hands in a passive game like this. Sadly, this is not a level, it is just the nature of being a spewtard-champ who wins by massively exploiting villain leaks.
I would absolutely assume I can win enough to make the 10% equity + position worthwhile. I also think we gain valuable information seeing the turn and being IP that its better to call then raise here.

All diamond turns make the plan easy:
Drop a nice 75 to 85 dollar bet out there. Good chance you win the hand outright. If someone gets sticky here, they WILL 95% pay your draw off if you hit the river.
Reasons making that bet good:
--People will fold bad priced draws on the turn (you really want to play a straight draw now?). Some expectation here that you're vs. villains that are now folding the original flushdraw
--the Q is a new high care making a rando T more nervous.
--The double checks is a sign no passive player has a monster. Passive players often get scared with all those draws out there if they have, say, a set, and are likely to donk into you with it.

If instead you had a turn and original Villain donk-leads 35 into you (with his KK or set or whatever rando **** he has that makes 0 preflop sense), you can call with correct odds and be confident that they WILL CALL a monster river bet when you hit it.
While donkey-spewtard-legends can get some credit for the backdoor flush hitting + bomb, OMC range that double-donk-bets is still going to call your value river bomb.

Also, my expectation of a turn checkraise is 0. If you get turn check-raised, your villain descrips need updating in both your head and posts: tricky+winning calling-stations turn checkraise, LAGs and MANIACs turn check/raise. Turn check-raise is just not in the poker vocabulary of passive daytime OMCs.


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Full strat thoughts:
In passive daytime game, my LP strategy shifts to LAG 101. I would raise and Cbet if I am checked to (unless I am getting ******edly clear physical tell that someone wants to check-raise pre or flop). In the back 3 spots, my range for this is something like: top 15%+ All SC/S1C/S2c/OC/AceOff... I am always tempted to limp suited low-Aces for the LolFun option of flush v flush stacking and my general hatred of weak aces vs. the OMC range (i'm basically expecting higher EV from Cbetting with air then CBetting with top pair when I have A5)

First off from my experience avoid playing in Reg invested day games. You're better off studying at home and waiting to play at night.

Fold Pre. If you elect to play the hand you should be raising IMO. If you are limping these hands you are just playing the same passive game everyone else is. Trying to "hit your hand".

you should be raising this flop texture with the intention to barrel any turn card that gains equity (i.e. Any diamond, any pair, obv binking gutter).

As played when checked to on turn you should bomb it. Size large and win (don't hate an overbearing either). Qd is the nut barrel card for your hand.

Looks fine

These passive games multiway it can be tough to get fold equity on this Q card, but it can work if you double barrel. I think if you bet here, it will go heads up to Tx UTG lead.

Then you need to bet river (little over 1/2 pot) If it goes 3 way to the river after you bet, we can no longer bluff.

Bet the turn. You have a lot of fold equity on turns in general in limped pots because people will call super wide on the flop for cheap. It's unlikely anyone has better than second pair unless they are slow-playing something.

I think the flop call is fine with a gutshot to the nuts. Raising is probably good, too, but I like to have reads before making that kind of play.

If you had raised pre, you could represent the Q on the turn.

Statistically, limping in low stakes games is not as profitable as raising. Pre, you should raise or fold.

Limping is low stakes is actually the most profitable stakes you can have a limp range in.

Truth.

Being worst loose passive pre at the table can be profitable in LLSNL as it gives you lots of postflop opportunities vs players who are god awful postflop. Fish are RIO w ATC postflop.


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The key word is "statistically".

In an analysis of over one million hands played, positional profit improves as the number of limpers is reduced. This is true for every position.

While there may be situations worth limping, it is not the most profitable strategy. There's too much gamble in a limp fest.

I cannot make the same claim for higher stakes. That's because postflop skill is higher and so, preflop raises tend to be smaller.

In short, it's usually a bad idea to limp in low stakes games.

Where was this analysis done? Methodology?

And "too much gamble" is a Good thing in LLSNL esp vs OMC who have 0 postflop heart.


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Seriously? Even AA does poorly against 9 players.

gl w/ your strategy of raising 53s. You raise 53s what don't you raise?

The OP played this hand, I didn't. As I understood his post, he was looking to represent the Q. I don't think it's believable if he did not raise pre.

Hand selection is probably the biggest leak for most small stakes players. I don't think 3-5s is playable, and would have folded pre. Others have a different view on hands they might play. Fine.

I'm trying to understand the part about "floating with odds." OP, are you referring to odds to hit your gutshot or odds to bluff the turn?

I don't mind the limp pre in this game, but I fold to the flop bet. Am I missing something?

As played, bet turn.

I tend to raise for value in these games pre. Problem with raising 53s or other weak hands is these guys limp call AQ/KJ ect so Id rather see flops with them all day cheaply in position.

But not sure if raising with gutters is superior to calling and trying to realize our equity. I think a bet on the turn in this particular hand is best given the flat on the flop.

I think 53s is fine to limp in LP, but probably closer to fold than call.

If you want are going to call pre-flop you have to call here on flop.

Someone please explain to me why we have to call on the flop? Are we actually getting the correct odds to hit a 4? Or are we hoping to bluff the turn if check to? Would we be bluffing a non-diamond turn?

We have a high SPR with 4 clean outs to the nuts, a backdoor flush draw, and a well disguised hand when we hit. Most hands which will continue on the turn have very little equity against our straight. I haven't done the math, but this is a pretty ideal spot to mine for a gutshot in a multiway pot, IMO.

Consider UTG lead range, it's a vulnerable Tx or medium PP, right? Well on high card turns, some % of the time, this player will check to you, remember he has 2 callers now at a minimum to act after him.

We have backdoor outs that help our hand, we have the gutshot and the ability to bluff when checked to us, presuming this goes 3 way and nobody IP flats behind us.

Which is why playing 53s from anywhere but the BTN is getting very close to fold pre-flop, because that 1 extra position behind us can call sometimes and that takes away our ability to float these type of flops.

Without the added edge of being able to bluff turns, we have to fold flop and probably pre-flop, especially if the looser guy is on our direct left.

Are we bluffing all turns?

You are missing the point of the argument.

There are 3 simple ranges: raising, calling, and folding. Each one is constructed with different range of cards, and for most part, these ranges stack from least to highest value. Very straight forward stuff.

Argument of having a wider limping range is to increase its value, and it makes most sense to take hands out of bottom of raising range and top of folding range.

You would obviously never take the most profitable hand out of the most profitable range. So when you use AA as an example, clearly you do not understand above concept.

I would think anything J or higher, when checked to.

It's going to be too difficult to get a Tx off his hand on under cards.

When I do stuff like this more often than not afterwards I wish I hadn't.


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