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Old 05-19-2018, 12:37 PM   #1
Balerion1
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2-5 First Hand At New Table

A new table opened up, we're 8 handed rn. 500 cap 2-5 came

Main V bought in for 500, asian Female. (Bu)
H bought in for 400 (bb)


Open to 20 from hj, bu calls, sb calls, H complete in bb with J9

F(80): 532
checks to bu, 40, folds to H, thought about raising but I think this situation is almost always a flat? Planned on leading turn , hj fold.

T(160): 7
x, 70, H has 360 total, call? raise?
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Old 05-19-2018, 01:29 PM   #2
QuadJ
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Re: 2-5 First Hand At New Table

Villain didn't bet enough so call. It won't be real profitable because you will have trouble making anything on the river when you hit but you should be able to get something sometimes and occasionally you catch a J or 9 and win the pot anyways.

Not knowing anything about villain raising is too risky and folding too weak.
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Old 05-19-2018, 02:02 PM   #3
PardoG
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Re: 2-5 First Hand At New Table

To me the hand is played fine and the turn is 70 to win 230 if I’m following the actin correctly ? J or 9 could be good....I’m calling here - can’t fold I don’t think.
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Old 05-19-2018, 02:19 PM   #4
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Re: 2-5 First Hand At New Table

probably a flat? i would just fire this into stove and give her a reasonable range for an unknown, skewed towards tight, given she flatted pre and her bet sizing. lots of 1 pair hands in her range, not a lot of bluffs.
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Old 05-19-2018, 03:31 PM   #5
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Re: 2-5 First Hand At New Table

I'd fold pre @ 80BB w/ a hand like this. Not much good is going to come playing OOP, 4-ways, @ a low (aka awkward) SPR, w/ a hand that is dominated more often than not. It's sooted/connected, but so what? Anyway, moving on....

Calling flop is totally standard. Raising would be totally standard too, as we have tons of equity, can set up a PS shove OTT, & essentially control the board.

AP I'm just calling. 7h is not a scare card, our equity has decreased, and villain barreling twice is more evidence that you're up against an overpair (than probably won't fold, but might).

You can think about making a move on a scary river if you don't hit, but usually I think just trying to realize our equity is best here & not getting too FPS.
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Old 05-20-2018, 08:39 AM   #6
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Re: 2-5 First Hand At New Table

V sizing seems on the light side given drawy texture, so I think C/R $125 has additional fold equity, especially being first hand at the table. Our J and 9 might be live also.

If the above line fails and will tilt u, then call flop.

AP, call.

Pre - torn at calling or folding this at 80 bbs effective. I'm defending more in my own development, but @ this stack vs. unknowns, lean toward a fold.
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Old 05-20-2018, 09:56 AM   #7
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Re: 2-5 First Hand At New Table

this is why i don't like playing 80bb deep lol
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Old 05-20-2018, 10:42 AM   #8
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Re: 2-5 First Hand At New Table

Calling that flop bet isnt "almost always a flat". With no reads whatsoever, Im basing my read on bet sizing and I suspect the raiser is weak. Im check raising this flop.
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Old 05-20-2018, 12:17 PM   #9
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Re: 2-5 First Hand At New Table

Fold pre

C/f flop

your draw kinda sucks & your fe on this board is pretty small by itself let alone it being a new table
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Old 05-20-2018, 12:53 PM   #10
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Re: 2-5 First Hand At New Table

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Originally Posted by MikeStarr View Post
Calling that flop bet isnt "almost always a flat". With no reads whatsoever, Im basing my read on bet sizing and I suspect the raiser is weak. Im check raising this flop.
ya i'd sometimes c/r as well depending on reads. c/r is better than leading here as a semi-bluff.
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Old 05-20-2018, 05:39 PM   #11
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Re: 2-5 First Hand At New Table

Fold pre. Can c/c, c/f, and c/r flop. As played flat turn.
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Old 05-20-2018, 09:16 PM   #12
Shai Hulud
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Re: 2-5 First Hand At New Table

Fold pre. I would be very tight in your cold calling range from the blinds multiway. If it's a button open and you'll be HU that's different but I just don't think with these stacks it's profitable to call OOP 4 ways with a marginal hand.

I would probably x/r flop. This is one of the better flops for you. Button may not have anything and is just betting because it checked to him, but there's no reason to assume he's strong, and HJ has tons of overcards and will give up often.

Calling is okay. OTT I would just call as you need more FE for a raise with 1 card to come. Jam diamond rivers and possibly heart rivers if button isn't too stationy.
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Old 05-20-2018, 11:12 PM   #13
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Re: 2-5 First Hand At New Table

1st hand at new table full of unknowns, I fold preflop here. you have all day to figure villains out after a few rounds, it's not worth guessing what these bets mean OOP on total unknowns
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Old 05-21-2018, 12:21 AM   #14
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Re: 2-5 First Hand At New Table

3 bet pre > folding pre > calling pre

call now
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Old 05-21-2018, 10:39 AM   #15
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Re: 2-5 First Hand At New Table

Pre - 3bet is better, call/fold is okay.

Flop - draw heavy board facing a half pot bet from btn (not the original raiser), this is def a raising for 3x+, considering your stack size, $130ish is good, and jam on the turn.

Turn - by sizing I don't feel btn is strong, I would like to raise her allin.
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Old 05-21-2018, 10:52 AM   #16
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Re: 2-5 First Hand At New Table

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Originally Posted by timmay28 View Post
Fold pre

C/f flop

your draw kinda sucks & your fe on this board is pretty small by itself let alone it being a new table


Preflop, What if Hero has JT instead of J9?
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Old 05-21-2018, 10:54 AM   #17
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Re: 2-5 First Hand At New Table

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Originally Posted by Shai Hulud View Post
Fold pre. I would be very tight in your cold calling range from the blinds multiway. If it's a button open and you'll be HU that's different but I just don't think with these stacks it's profitable to call OOP 4 ways with a marginal hand.

I would probably x/r flop. This is one of the better flops for you. Button may not have anything and is just betting because it checked to him, but there's no reason to assume he's strong, and HJ has tons of overcards and will give up often.

Calling is okay. OTT I would just call as you need more FE for a raise with 1 card to come. Jam diamond rivers and possibly heart rivers if button isn't too stationy.
I think these are all good points. What is the bottom of your calling range in this situation?
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Old 05-21-2018, 02:06 PM   #18
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Re: 2-5 First Hand At New Table

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Originally Posted by Phil Me Up View Post
I'd fold pre @ 80BB w/ a hand like this. Not much good is going to come playing OOP, 4-ways, @ a low (aka awkward) SPR, w/ a hand that is dominated more often than not. It's sooted/connected, but so what? Anyway, moving on....

Calling flop is totally standard. Raising would be totally standard too, as we have tons of equity, can set up a PS shove OTT, & essentially control the board.

AP I'm just calling. 7h is not a scare card, our equity has decreased, and villain barreling twice is more evidence that you're up against an overpair (than probably won't fold, but might).

You can think about making a move on a scary river if you don't hit, but usually I think just trying to realize our equity is best here & not getting too FPS.
+1 especially fold pre.
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Old 05-21-2018, 11:30 PM   #19
Shai Hulud
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Re: 2-5 First Hand At New Table

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Originally Posted by paratrooper99 View Post
I think these are all good points. What is the bottom of your calling range in this situation?
With these stacks just pocket pairs suited broadways and AQ if HJ isn't opening wide enough to warrant a 3 bet. 3 betting TT+ AK maybe a few more hands. If the other players are skilled or HJ is tight we might fold even more hands like QTs or KTs.

It also depends on your skill level, but IMO this is a hard spot to make money and you could find yourself frequently in tricky spots OOP. It's very hard to tell if you have the best hand when HJ c bets on JT6tt or 976r for instance.
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Old 05-21-2018, 11:56 PM   #20
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Re: 2-5 First Hand At New Table

so we're closing the action pre, and we have a hand that plays decent mutli plays and most of y'all folding???
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Old 05-21-2018, 11:58 PM   #21
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Re: 2-5 First Hand At New Table

I understand this is 80 bbs deep and villain's are unknown, but cmon for crying out loud to folding for $15 with 65 in the pot...
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Old 05-22-2018, 12:18 AM   #22
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Re: 2-5 First Hand At New Table

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Originally Posted by Balerion1 View Post
I understand this is 80 bbs deep and villain's are unknown, but cmon for crying out loud to folding for $15 with 65 in the pot...
*Shrug*

It's your $$$. It's your poker experience. Decide for yourself.

Personally, I don't think I'm good enough to flat here & make $$$ in the long-term. Others may think they are. That's their business.
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Old 05-22-2018, 07:09 AM   #23
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Re: 2-5 First Hand At New Table

I would just flat here. Your equity just got cut by that turn.
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Old 05-22-2018, 08:19 AM   #24
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Re: 2-5 First Hand At New Table

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Originally Posted by Balerion1 View Post
I understand this is 80 bbs deep and villain's are unknown, but cmon for crying out loud to folding for $15 with 65 in the pot...
This place is chock full of nits. Calling preflop is fine if you play well post flop. But that's the issue here. Just check/calling the flop with a FD is not really "playing well post flop". You cant just check/call with a FD and then lead out when it hits the turn.

You've got to mix in some other lines where you win sometimes with J high. You need to check raise the flop sometimes when you sense weakness.

Another option is to lead out and 1 of 3 things will happen.

1) You'll take it down right there a decent percentage of the time with J high.
2) Youll get called and youre in the same position youre in with what you did which isnt terrible
3) Youll get raised and you can shove and take it down often enough to go with your equity when called to make it a +EV play.
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Old 05-22-2018, 01:21 PM   #25
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Re: 2-5 First Hand At New Table

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Originally Posted by MikeStarr View Post
This place is chock full of nits. Calling preflop is fine if you play well post flop. But that's the issue here. Just check/calling the flop with a FD is not really "playing well post flop". You cant just check/call with a FD and then lead out when it hits the turn.

You've got to mix in some other lines where you win sometimes with J high. You need to check raise the flop sometimes when you sense weakness.

Another option is to lead out and 1 of 3 things will happen.

1) You'll take it down right there a decent percentage of the time with J high.
2) Youll get called and youre in the same position youre in with what you did which isnt terrible
3) Youll get raised and you can shove and take it down often enough to go with your equity when called to make it a +EV play.
Bolded is totally right and why I fold OOP with this at what is arguably close to 0EV ($65 +$385 in PFR's stack for 30x). IP thiss is a no brainer call, but I can probably count the number of players at 2-5 who can consistently win a pot with Jack high from the blinds on half of one hand. If you are that good, then go for it...I am not.
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