This spot may only be interesting to me because I log so few hours in a year but I can't remember the last time I was in the spot (4 ways at least).

Hero MAG $1060 effective. Should be viewed on the tight aggressive side. Getting a lot of strong starting hands this session but still getting folds pre.
Showed down one hand where we opened JTo from the BU and got called by 97o in the BB. Got x/r on T high flop, called turn barrel, river x/x and we hold. Most other hands standard strong hands. Getting lots of folds to my pre flop raises all night, some due to my nit image with regs.

V 30s reg sitting $2k+. Plays too many hands and has some aggression but would not describe as LAG. Kind of standard 2/5 reg reads.

OTTH: Two limps in EP, V also limps MP. Hero raises to $35 in CO with T8. The BU is super weak tight and will only continue with AQ+, TT+ so it's almost like I get the BU twice per orbit with any playable hand. BU folds, blinds fold. All 3 limpers call. Figures I go from getting no action to too much action.

Flop (~$140 after rake): QJ6
Limpers both check and V donk leads $140. What!? I'm legit stunned. I'm not sure if this is a super strong made hand or a draw. I'm thinking QJ, 66, Ac6c all make some sense but 66 should be x/r some of the time too. Does he have any bluffs here like T9 or KT with one club? Can we ever call here? We could be in horrible shape vs A6cc for example but if it's 66 or QJ and he will pay us off aren't we risking $140 for $1300 (the $420 pot from the flop call + our $880 behind if we hit) to draw one card (any club or any 9)? It's possible we could get additional action behind from hands like T9 or KT as well. But against hands like KT (dominating our straight draw) or A9cc we aren't always drawing clean anyways so we have to dump it right?

I think this is a fold for a PSB with 2 left to act. We are sometimes crushed and sometimes have decent equity. But not enough to call. Should always consider raising but I wouldn’t in this spot.

Yeah I'm thinking QJ/66 and the NFD can definitely do this.

Even so I think I still like a call once IP and see what develops on the turn.

This was my initial thought. But isn't it hard for the limpers to x/r after V pots it and gets flatted by the PFR? It seems like it would only increase our implied odds if they come along. I also considered raising but then really hated it as it seems this sizing is ready to go to war. So if we don't have fold equity our raw equity isn't enough and it seemed like a punt.

This was my later thought. It's just so tempting to peel one. It just seems like we are risking so much of our stack to see one card and aren't drawing to the nuts unless we bink the 9. I felt like it was a really tough spot but part of that may have been the unfamiliarity.

I think you're deep enough to peel here. Having position is what tips it for me to call once because you can still navigate the turn pretty well.

Also it's sweet when you hit your 4 outter.

It seems as if V is definitely trying to protect his made hand. I don't know if that's 66 or QJ, but that's what it looks like. I can also see the Ac6c route being taken or another good/big draw. If he thinks you are tight and have TT+, AK, etc., he could be a little wide here.

This deep in position I flat and see what happens. If one of the other Vs was planning to check/raise, we need to let it go. (Would need stacks, tendencies, etc.) I can get behind a fold, too. No need to get crazy here with this hand.

Yes. For some reason I see a lot of people here reason out the worst case scenarios and paint them like they will happen with the highest frequency compared to the other scenarios.

Then they make this their primary driver to make a decision in the hand.

Villains aren't just auto CRing boards like these with a PSB and a call from the PFR from a range that limp calls from EP.

And if they do CR just fold, it's whatever. It's not like it happens so frequently that you are losing tons of money flatting in this spot in position.

They can also overcall which we don’t actually benefit from. Having the NFD is a different story. And this is not the primary factor in the decision. Adds something though.

Shove

I don't think a flop call is even close. IP with a combo draw you're doing well vs his range and you get to act last. Even if it's HU and he bets turn for a mediumish size I'd also call. Even if he has a bigger FD you're still going to win the pot a decent amount when it bricks (it will a lot since only 7 clubs would be left), he checks and you get to stab.

Please elaborate. Seems like we are repping 4-6 combos of sets or AKcc, ATcc only. I don't see us getting enough folds to make this profitable. His nut flush draws may continue, his sets will definitely continue, his QJ may also continue. We blow the weaker hands and draws away but get called what I feel like is too often and we are never ahead. What am I missing?
Thanks. This is a large flaw in my reasoning. I don't have enough bluffs on brick run outs and hadn't even really considered how likely this scenario was. This makes the position point hit home more and may explain why many don't think it's close. I was thinking from the standpoint of "the times we are over-flushed we are losing a ton" which if played correctly in position is probably not the case.

Your nit image should slow him down a bit if you flat him on the flop. The only problem is he might bluff at a club, especially if he holds the naked Ac, so you have to be prepared to shove or fold -- get your soul-reader ready.

I would shove. We’re not trying to get him off 66 or QJ, but with our image and at this stack depth he may fold a better FD or a hand like K-10 suited.

Call makes sense too because we’re relatively deep and IP.

Do not fold...

Shove seems not good. Especially with this combo.

Both valid points. To some extent I kind of factored in the nit image ahead of time. Didn't think he would pot it here with hands like AcQx for example, so I feel like he's telling me that he's fine with stacking off. Which goes directly to your second point, there is no easy button unless the 9c hits and the rest of the hand will probably only get tougher.

But if we are giving him 10 combos of QJ, 66, and A6cc for value that have us smashed and wont fold and 3 combos of KTs (we block KTcc) that will fold we are way short on bluffs. I feel like he's just calling too often. Even if we add 3 combos of T9s he's still too value heavy and we are repping super thin.

Consensus sounds like flat.

What about hands like KQ, Q10, A4cc that you should be able to fold out with a $1000+ shove with a nit image? You’re also winning over $200 (40 BB) every time that happens. That’s like 4-5 hours of work.. for a good player.

Also, we’re 45% against QJ..

I’d personally flat if I was in this spot, but that’s because I typically have a LAG image and have significantly less FE than you here. I don’t think it matters too much though tbh, as long as you didn’t fold

Folding is ok, calling is not - and Andees is legit, but I just can't get on board with a call. There are still two checking ranges that have you potentially drawing dead to 1 out if they continue - at the very least drawing thin in what will then be a huge pot. With the QJT8 clubs removed, there are not a ton of better flush draws in ranges which helps you when making your decision still 4-handed. A shove is going to rep a very strong range and make calling real tough for everyone, even a flop set of 66 behind you. Your main V has LAG tendencies and as a result may have bet-folds moreso than some tighter player. Again, given the removal, I think your outs are clean even if you get called by V (or another player) and you yourself have fewer FDs/Combo draws to use as semibluffs along with QJ and sets that you also should ship. I mean, calling means that even if you get checked to, you'll have to put more money in the pot to win -- it's already 500 assuming other players fold, that means blacks are going in... you can't show-down T8 high and win more than 2% unimproved, and the idea of calling 140 and then getting 300 called bc everything missed just can't be ideal - especially when you rep nothing checking turn (when checked to) -----> ship or fold.

As noted above, we just disagree here on ranging. If V is this wide then I would agree a shove is in play. I guess it's read dependent and our reads are just different. If we can get enough folds I'm on board. I didn't think we could.

Lots of valid points here, many of which I did consider, making for what I thought was a tough spot. When several legit players disagree on call vs shove vs fold and some say it's not close it tells me the spot isn't trivial. Discussion has been great either way. I follow your train of thought here but again differ in the amount of FE our shove has. My ranging could be off but with only some LAG tendencies I couldn't find enough spaz or bet/folds to make me think shoving was good. Yea navigating turns and rivers will be nasty if we miss which is another reason I wanted to let it go. Peeling for one card without a great plan seemed bad and betting turn shoving river with T high seemed nasty too, not sure I could have followed through.

I'm on board with call or fold. I think shoving is pretty terrible this deep.

Why can't we raise to 440-475 or so? Shoving seems like something we would not do with a real hand this deep.

I like this idea but I’d go even smaller. $350 and call a shove and shove all non paired turns

and putting in 1/2 eff stacks is?

jam

you'l be jamming other strong hands, your range is doing just fine

Oh, you know what, I misread the effective stacks. For some reason I thought they were $1300.

A shove here (assuming the other two players fold) is still asking Villain to call 985 into a pot of 420, a more-than-twice-pot overbet. I can see why we don't want to raise to an amount that is not all-in, but I'm more a fan of calling now than I was before. (We could shove the turn sometimes if we think that could work.)