2/5 deep stack: KK broke pre flop? - Live Low-stakes No Limit Poker Forum

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2/5 deep stack: KK broke pre flop?

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05-11-2014 , 05:55 PM

seventy6

stranger

Join Date: Mar 2014 Posts: 12

2/5 NL ,the game is easy and there are two fish st the table,7 players are week tight and me and other two are tight aggressive.evrybody has more than 200bb.
Players are focused on the fish,he s loosing 3K in about an hour.
Fish is straddle 10
Hero MP with KK (2k) raise 40
V1 CO (tight aggressive player with 1k )call
V2 OTB(tight aggressive player with 2k like me)3bet 90
Fish fold ,hero 4bet 290(he used a strange size,90 )
V1 fold and V2 5bet 690
Hero?

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05-11-2014 , 06:08 PM

Oddhalo

The Situation

Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 1,004

Looks like he wants action badly actually...

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05-11-2014 , 07:28 PM

7+2=Fish

centurion

Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 198

Can you really fold KK here? I think if villain has aces will nh. Just a cold deck.

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05-11-2014 , 07:32 PM

QuadJ

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Apr 2012 Posts: 6,237

The double under sized raises really looks like he wants to get it in now or on flop. I have seen villains making a raise with a weakish hand for the first raise, either to squeeze you out or as a metagame bluff. Also, villain could easily have something like AK/QQ/JJ that is raising for value and you have to play this OOP. So I like the 4 bet, but when he comes over the top of that he has said clearly that he doesn't care what you have, he wants to get it in.

Make a read and go with it, fold or shove. This is a rare situation where I favor fold.

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05-11-2014 , 07:45 PM

OSUTexan

old hand

Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 1,210

I fold and just make myself believe that he showed me AA after.

Not going broke for 400BB with KK preflop and unless I've ever seen anything like this from him in the past without AA....I'm folding. Take the $260 loss and move on....

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05-11-2014 , 07:45 PM

slimshady1999

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 4,313

Fold. His tiny 3bet is often means big PP. when he 5bets you after min 3betting this deep, it should be KK+ almost always especially if he's passive 3bettor

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05-11-2014 , 08:03 PM

AintNoLimit

Coach live/online NLHE

Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 6,399

Every action he has taken suggests AA. Even his own player type suggests it.

Anyone stacking 400bb in this spot is burning money with only these facts to go on.

He now has put 700 of 2000 in the pot committing himself just fine yet still trying to not put too much pressure on you. This is AA. The few times it isnt, is not worth discussing really.

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05-11-2014 , 08:11 PM

slimshady1999

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 4,313

Quote:

Originally Posted by AintNoLimit

There's a straddle so it's only 200bb

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05-11-2014 , 08:21 PM

McMelchior

veteran

Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 2,699

Quote:

Originally Posted by slimshady1999

There's a straddle so it's only 200bb

Yeah, that's what I used to think.

But basically a straddle is nothing more than a frivolous blind raise, it's not an extra double sized BB that magically reduces everybody's stacks to half size, and nobody suddenly starts playing like its a $5-10 game just because there is a straddle. Thankfully.

And a straddle suddenly doesn't make it right to go broke for 400 BB with a single pair, when all signs are that you're unlikely to be good just half of the time.

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05-11-2014 , 08:47 PM

#10

QuadJ

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Apr 2012 Posts: 6,237

Quote:

Originally Posted by McMelchior

But basically a straddle is nothing more than a frivolous blind raise, it's not an extra double sized BB that magically reduces everybody's stacks to half size, and nobody suddenly starts playing like its a $5-10 game just because there is a straddle. Thankfully.

Well, really, it does. It is another blind bet that is live, lowering effective BBs/flop SPR and putting more money in the pot preflop.

Your very right that villains don't think of it that way. Many don't adjust at all, and the ones that do often don't adjust correctly. I run into a lot of aggro fish at night who actually open their range up wider and raise smaller with the straddle in play, trying to steal the extra money in the pot. The truth is, the straddle is reducing their effective stacks from 80-100BB to 40-50BB and they should be using a tight raise big or fold strategy preflop.

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05-11-2014 , 09:25 PM

#11

HappyLuckBox

old hand

Join Date: Feb 2013 Posts: 1,491

Fold

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05-11-2014 , 09:47 PM

#12

River G

grinder

Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 453

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oddhalo

Looks like he wants action badly actually...

^ This, V has AA the vast majority of the time. I folded a similar spot just the other day, and Villain proudly tabled JTo. Stung a bit, yet still that is so random that I'd advocate a fold regardless.

Unless we have some sick read on Villain, we're stacking off badly most of the time. It's not mandatory to do so with KK pre - fold IMHO.

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05-12-2014 , 01:44 AM

#13

Flatbarrel

centurion

Join Date: Apr 2013 Posts: 150

Fold ap

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05-12-2014 , 03:28 AM

#14

seventy6

stranger

Join Date: Mar 2014 Posts: 12

Quote:

Originally Posted by QuadJ

RIGHT...I thought the same things,when he raised 90 his range for me was ( JJ+AK) bet when I 4bet 290 and him 5bet me 690 can have only AA,the flow of the game is easy and I don t think that he wants play against me for all stack with another hand.....
So I thought for 5 minuts and players ask me the time....I folded and him ask me QQ or AK?I told him QQ, and he show AA
At the end of the session when we was alone told me that action against me in that flow could have only AA

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05-12-2014 , 07:13 AM

#15

scelsi

old hand

Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 1,464

Since you're relatively deep, did you think about what might happen postflop if you flat the three-bet?

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05-12-2014 , 12:34 PM

#16

seventy6

stranger

Join Date: Mar 2014 Posts: 12

Quote:

Originally Posted by scelsi

Since you're relatively deep, did you think about what might happen postflop if you flat the three-bet?

I think that flat OOP a 3bet with KK its not good for two things:
-thr player with AA its a good player but not so good to trap me with AA so if he flat my 4bet I m sure that is range is JJ-QQ AK
-if I only call at the 3bet I don t play only against him but CO that call MY raise preflop 40 put 90 sure....
so I think that the 4bet in this case is automatic

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05-12-2014 , 01:46 PM

#17

UCDLaCrosse

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 4,903

Quote:

Originally Posted by seventy6

This is just flat out wrong. I think 4betting here is spew because you will only get 5bet by AA And they can flat the 4bet with a wide range in position and make your life hell postflop.

As such; flat the 3bet pre and play postflop. You arent meant to stack 200bb with KK pre; play postflop for crying out loud.

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05-12-2014 , 10:08 PM

#18

seventy6

stranger

Join Date: Mar 2014 Posts: 12

Quote:

Originally Posted by UCDLaCrosse

I don t like call OOP KK in this situation..if he put 290 preflop i m sure that he doesn t have AA,so if He call me with wide range like you say i' m happy...
If he calls 290 the pot will be 640 and my stack 1.700....its easy to play in this situation

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05-13-2014 , 01:14 AM

#19

slimshady1999

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 4,313

Quote:

Originally Posted by UCDLaCrosse

4betting gets value from worse and allows us to safely fold and lose the minimum against AA. And I would recommend 4bettin smaller to something like $240 to keep in worse hands. Stacks will be shallow if villain flats 4bet so they can't really apply pressure to us unless it comes Axx or QJx. If you flat you play a guessing game and can still lose a ton to AA or risk folding the best hand. And villain can make your life a living hell with position and deep stacks

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05-13-2014 , 11:52 AM

#20

UCDLaCrosse

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 4,903

Quote:

Originally Posted by slimshady1999

So what you are saying is 4b small to fold to a 5b; so you are bluffing with KK?

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