i mean if were folding 66 here what are we calling with? seems like a pretty easy call

Super easy call. Said it months ago when this thread was originally posted, still sayin it now after reading the results.

You basically have the tip top of your range. If you really wanna fold a boat, at least choose 22 to fold.

Everybody else in this thread saying fold is basically a nit/scared money/results oriented

Well to be clear, I also agree that it is a call.

I bumped the thread not to re-debate that but this thread was really interesting and i read through it again and was surprised at how SunChips and a few others put V on JT and I don't see how on earth a good player plays JT like this 300+bb deep.

This. Also people who said villain played this hand optimally wtf are you talking about?

I was slightly more inclined to think JJ with Jd. Regardless, I think playing this deep when flopping a small set(even middle asset), I think just calling the flop would have been best. Checking turn a possibility too since as played we made the pot too big too call the shove. I like using math myself, but these river bets are rarely ever flushes or bluffs. The "let me have this one" here would have made me burn my hand in effigy. Lags make their money in these exact spots. Also, a flush, as played will cc this river almost always. But as always, hindsight is 20/20.

Let him show you a bigger hand...

Villains donk shove on the river is so bad, I am actually on tilt now

This is a call here as J10 is most likely the only hand that's beats you getting this far in the hand

10s and Js would have most likely raised at some point during the hand because of all the draws on this board especially on the turn. That alone makes these combos much less likely.

Flushes and bluffs make up far too much of his range to fold now, losing tons of value if you do

I do find this thread super-interesting. It's actually enlightening to me. I don't know if the responses being strange to me is a reflection of how much I don't know, or how many people make mistakes in this situation live.

I would never ever make this call with the 5th nuts ever AINEC. Maybe that's a leak, so I'm glad you don't know who I am, but there's no way IMO a good player bluff-shoves 1600 into someone repping a super strong HAND, let alone range, whom they supposedly know well. With that speech? My cards hit the muck before the words end.

Against the table whale? Yes fist-pump call. Against the top 5-10 player in my casino? POSSIBLY. Someone coming down from 10-25NL? Sure, consider a call. Just never here in this specific scenario. It has every red flag all over it.

Again, strictly IMO, but if you can't let go of a baby boat super deep against a shove in this scenario, you shouldn't be playing LPPs this deep.

I'm open to flames if they're educational.

There's history; maybe it's exploitive.

Does a good player shove 300BB for value in a paired board against a strong range? Does he expect to be called by lesser flushes?

Does a good player turn his nut flush draw into a bluff?

Flushes IMO have showdown value here, it's strange to bet them for value, strange to turn them into bluffs.

Naked Ts hard to reach the river.

Now, if he's a level 1 player who thinks flush is the nuts, it's a different story.

Another question is what's villain's optimal play here: c/r or shove? I think against a good player a c/r is far more capped for value. A shove against a strong range leaves our range wider so maybe that's the best line. I am not sure.

I think a lot of you guys are too focused on the river shove and what that means rather than looking at the hand as a whole

If villain had the 1st (JJ) or 2nd nuts (1010) on this board texture and is considered a good player he would have raised at sometime during the hand before river. You consider yourselves good players, would you play top sets like this, with this board, facing this aggression? I don't think so.

Therefore J10 is really the only hand that beats us here. Villain was probably cautious with top two fearing hero might have a set. Two pair is not the 1st or 2nd nuts, so it makes sense. If he runner runnered us then so be it, but im calling all day long with what I believe is the 2nd nuts, especially with flush card hitting river.

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