V1, SB, ~$2000: only played 1 orbit so far, apparently just came from broken 2/5 PLO game, with about $2K stack (actually not sure if this should have been allowed given 2/5 NL has $1K max buyin, lol). Played 1 hand vs me where he value bet river with KQo on Q877xhhh and was good (I mucked JJ). Seems like competent, winning, somewhat straightforward TAG player.

V2, MP, ~$450: Bad, generally weak-tight reg. Limp/calls too wide pre, but tightens up post. Calls along with drawing/medium strength hands. Slightly tilty now after losing some hands (doubled up with her 3rd buyin to $450), and probably wants to gamble if she flops well.

Hero, BTN, ~$1200: Most aggressive player at the table, but not super loose this session. Won $900 pot with AJss on 8855Qss, opponent talked himself into check/jamming the 885ss flop with a pocket pair (so counterfeited 22-44 I guess); note V1 was not at table to see this hand. Otherwise been raising and winning pots without showdown a lot. Most of table seems happy to let me run them over unless they flop really nutty, so all I have to do is pick my spots and not go crazy vs the tops of their ranges. Probably viewed as tough/tricky/aggro young dude.

Random MP player who missed his blinds posts a $10 straddle. V2 calls next to act. I open TT on the BTN to $40, V1 flats from the SB, and V2 calls. 3 way to flop.

Flop: 8 3 2, pot $130.

V1 who generally acts fairly quickly (hence why I tend to think he's straightforward TAG and not too tricky), again quickly leads out for $65. V2 calls quickly as well (not instant, but less than 5 seconds). Hero ??? (obv not folding, holding my opinions for now between flatting vs raising).

Just call...raising is terrible

I guess I'll add that imo, V1 as a straightforward TAG probably almost never half-pots this flop with a set (super unlikely he has 32 in his preflop range). To make this sized bet, he can easily have 8x/99-JJ (he probably 3bets all QQ+ 100% preflop, and honestly probably 3bets TT/JJ most of the time too). He obv also has a bunch of Axdd/54dd type hands, and some random non-nut/non-combo flush draws. I have no idea what he does with his really good draws if I raise the flop.

V2 can have any decent draw you can imagine, as well as all middle pairs. She's probably never folding any credible flush draw to a flop raise (like KTdd, but she probably folds 76dd). She also can't really have QQ+ given preflop.

Why is raising terrible? We get value from 8x and diamonds. And 99 I guess. Also it's kind of to protect our hand, there's a ton of bad turn cards.

I would raise to 265. And I think you can actually get it in on this flop if raised because IMO v1 is half-pot donking a set so rarely as described, should be 3bing higher pocket pairs preflop, and seems capable of shoving overs+FD (or FD+gutshot or some combo draw like that). And v2 seems willing to stack off light and she's short anyway.

Grossest is if we raise and v1 flats leaving us spr of 2 on a turn card we are probably not going to like.

Given that your effective is much deeper vs V1, I am at this point more concern of V2 before the flop was even dealt, because of her stack size and her position relative to V1 (if she shoves, we have to act before V1).

Good thing on this flop is that her range appears to be capped, given her mental state, board texture, and preflop action. In other words, I don't think she has a hand > TT.

V1 should be wide for several reasons.

1. He came from PLO game, which plays bigger than this game.

2. He came with his whole stack, so he's unlikely a nit.

3. He sat with the biggest stack, likely to think of himself as a better player than rest.

4. Hero appears to be active and wide.

5. Could be an ego war.

Under above assumptions, I like to turn the table on V1 and put in a raise that pretty much represents $410 (remaining of V2's stack) and be happy to get it in vs V2, if she does indeed shove.

I'll raise to $180.

Actually the quick acting is kind of a tell. If villain has a thin value hand or a nutty hand, people will usually take a moment to think about how to get the most value. A snap bet is usually either an obvious decision you've made a hundred times before (open raising aqo preflop, cbetting flopped top pair etc) or a bluff. So I think that makes it even less likely you are behind on the flop.

Even though my first instinct was to raise....I like flatting the flop here to see how the hand develops 3 handed....heads up is a slightly different case. Any diamond on the turn with a decent-sized bet from either villain and I'm giving up (would feel slightly better with 10 diamond in my hand but oh well).

Wow this would be atrocious IMO against a "straightforward, competent, winning TAG". His get it in range is like 2 pr, sets, pair + fl draws if he is really good.

We have the BTN in a 3way pot. Let's use it and not bloat the pot with a mediocre hand.

ProPokerTools Hold'em Simulation

113,850 trials (Exhaustive)

board: 832

Hand	Pot equity	Wins	Ties
ThTs	34.96%	39,334	945
22,33,88,23,Ad8d, 4d5d, Ad4d, Ad5d, 5d6d, 99	65.04%	73,571	945

Is this a good range? BTW I think he c/r the the bottom end of this range some A5dd, A4dd, 56dd so if we exclude those it gets even worse

Why is his gii range dependent on the absolute strength of his hand if he's competent? That's a sign a player isn't competent.

If he's competent he realizes our range is overpairs and draws and the only hand better than that we can have is exactly 88.

If he's competent he realizes any combo draw (axdd, pair+fd, fd+gs) is a favorite over our range and it would be a mistake for him not to 3b flop and he's be priced in to call a shove.

I guess I would fold if v1 clicked it back, without a read that he would do that as a bluff. If we raised to 260 and he made it 700 i'd gii because it's a draw often enough. But it's pretty thin.

I'd call. Our hand is not that strong 3-way to bloat pot imo. Hero image is aggressive, so V1 lead may be an attempt to induce.
V1 Range: 88/33/22/9d8d/8d7d/5d4d/over card FDs.

He is also straight-forward and competent so I'd prefer to use our position and see what develops on the turn. Clearly there are not many good turn cards, so I'd strongly consider folding if he continues.

right but his range has to include other made hands not just combos...i'm not disagreeing that combos aren't in his range but I think the non-combo hands in his range crush our hand.

I think you're right, but then what's our play on the flop? Are we just r/fing? actually I guess that's not bad even though it is super exploitable.

I advocate flatting and using our position

Awesome discussion so far, thanks guys. Before I give my thoughts on the flop, I just want to preface it with this: I'm not claiming to "know" any answers either (hence why I posted); I just happen to be the guy who played the hand, so think of me as a witness rather than an expert.

Anyways, IMO, I don't like raising flop here primarily because I think it lets V1 make the best possible decision with most/all of his flop donking range. Some random 8x/99 hand? He gets to muck (and no more value for me); I don't think he would ever really consider continuing with those hands, even though he knows I have semibluffs in my flop raising range, given that: (1) we're deep, (2) I have position on him, and (3) V2 is in the hand. A nice, nutted combo draw like A5dd? He's free to 3bet and put me in a tough spot with my pretty obvious overpair (I can't really have 22/33/32, so my only nutted hand is 88). How confident was I in my bet-sizing read that his flop bet was rarely sets/2pair? In hindsight, I think it's pretty reliable. In the moment and at the table? I wasn't so sure...

Put another way, even if V1 doesn't reraise us, V2 can and most likely will just jam it in with Axdd/Kxdd/54dd type hands (remember she's tilty and losing, so if she see's like $200 from both me and V1 already in the pot, she's gonna think, "sweet pot odds!"), if that's what she happens to have. And then we're kind of stuck, right? Basically, I didn't see any real, clear extra value to be gained by raising the flop, but I could foresee a bunch of marginal/thin scenarios that would be generated by me raising.

I dunno how to put this scientifically, but in my mind, flatting gave me the best chance to keep making better decisions than my opponents. Raising just seemed too gamboooollll-y (in the sense that I'm just hoping/praying for my opponents to not be nutted, or for them to make suboptimal decisions like continuing with bad draws or not repopping with combo draws).

So, to recap and continue:

Flop: 8 3 2, pot $130.

V1 leads for $65. V2 calls. Hero thinks for about 10-15 sec, and calls.

Turn: 8 3 2 2, pot $325.

V1 leads again, same timing as flop (like 2-3 seconds), for $150. V2 tanks for a bit and folds. Hero ??? For the record, we have ~$1100 effective stacks still.

on flop make it 250 all day. too many scary turn cards to flat and let them peel one for cheap (65).

as played on turn please raise and don't make it anything less than 500.

What better is folding and what worse is calling? Let's just start there.

Are you r/f or r/c. If you are r/c you are burning $$$ because he is never doing it with worse IMO.

Pretty good card for Hero as it counters pr/combos like 98/87/86.

Sizing seems weak, so call and be prepared to do the same on most rivers.

I don't support the raise to 500 but
Worse: A5d, 45 etc... Pretty much every flushdraw + another draw or pair can call us on the turn and be behind since they have between 9-15 outs
Better callling: jj,33,22,88
Better folding: ... I don't see any really. Maybe JJ

am i the only one in this thread that thinks villians range consists of mostly 1 pairs and flush draws. I've completely removed sets and 2 pairs from his range with his sizing in relation to flop texture. Is he calling with much worse? No, but we aren't allowing him to draw to a river at a price that he sets.

I agree with every action so far (except not taking 10-15 seconds on the flop to call), and now I'm calling turn for pot control. It looks like this bet is designed to either induce a raise because he is super strong, or to set his price for a draw, or to leave him room to fold if we raise. Only in one of those scenarios is it correct to raise. So I am calling here and hoping that he tries to bluff the river--or, I'm calling here and hoping he check/calls the river with 8x. If he does check the river I am probably not checking back.

EDIT: For the one guy who says Villain can't be strong here so we ought to raise--I'd rather have Villain call a bet on the river with 8x than fold to a turn raise. Obviously I lose value if Villain does have diamonds and would have called on the turn, so there is a trade-off, but it's not a slam-dunk decision either way.

Yeah, I think V1's range on the flop is 99/JJ, 8x, and draws. He can have some 22/33/88 in his range, but I think it is unlikely for him to lead out so quickly with those hands as opposed to trapping. Also, there aren't any two-pairs in his pre-flop calling range.

This is why I like raising the flop. He is probably flatting with his 99/JJ, folding his 8x unless he has a draw included (98 of diamonds), and calling with his draws. We are getting value from 99, some 8x, and all of his draws by raising.

Calling on the flop allows his draws to stay in for a cheaper price while keeping SPR lower than if we would have raised.

Quick question, for everyone that says calling is good which I understand on the flop, at what point do you decide that you need to protect your equity vs 2 other opponents?

Yeah have to agree, I like the reasoning for Just calling flop, and continuing to call down reasonable, half-pot bets on any "blank", non diamond turns.

But, if we call flop/call turn, then on almost any River card,
if V puts in a healthy $600 psb, it is going to be a tough call.

Call flop. Call turn.

Play a modest pot and protect your stack. TT is plenty good enough to play for show down here.

Raising flop or turn is pretty bad IMO.