We make V's life much easier by letting an overpair not have to play a turn and river deep OOP.

I'm not saying I prefer a raise to an initial call. I'm just saying I like a raise if I know V is 3-betting.

Another thing to consider is whether V will pay off anything but a straight w KK. But I guess IO aren't all that important when we have direct odds. I don't like the turn bricking and losing half our equity though....

Ive put half of my stack in this pot, I'm not folding.

I like combo draws as much as the next person but I like some fold equity with them, especially 220bbs deep

I think that given that he knows he is viewed as crazy aggro, I don't like the raise.

FWIW, getting 220bbs in with Kings here seems pretty terrible especially with the J out

You know, you're right, in a vacuum. I felt like I had a good read on the situation and went with it. If he had just flatted the flop, the pot would have been much smaller and I would have went for pot control but as played, feeling almost certain that he had a flush draw, I'm not flatting and let him get there cheaply.

How can you be almost certain he had a flushdraw? With all respect, it sounds like wishful thinking. You have a hard time to fold your kings, then you justify to stack off with telling yourself villain has a flushdraw. You THINK and WISH he has that hand, but you cant really know it- thats my point.

Sets and two pair is very often fastplaying their hands on the flop, and to those hands your overpair is almost dead or in very bad shape. Your best scenario is to face a naked flushdraw, very often your in horrible shape. Even now against nutflushcombodraw you are slightly behind.

Generelly i believe its a mistake to stackoff 220 BB on this board with an overpair. The ranges that stackoff to you here in a single raised pot has you crushed.

I don't know why I felt that way but I did. I had been playing with him for hours and as soon as he made that funny raise, I felt fairly certain that it was a flush draw. He was the best player at the table who was unknown to me and I had been putting him on hands for hours and considering he played a large amount of hands, I had alot of experience with this.
I didn't think he had JJ because he would have 3bet pre. 44 and 22 were possibilities but that was a small part of his range. I believe he would have played any flush draw in this manner, not just nutted ones.
As I said, and I think alot of players here who know me would agree, I'm not the type to play 440bb pots with 1 pr hands but, in this case, I did.

If you like, I can start another thread and discuss the optimal way to play the KK in this situation. Might be a little skewed since everyone knows what villain had

Yeah, it would be resultoriented for sure when we know the results.

In general or in a vacuum i believe its a mistake as i said to stack off 220 BB in a single raised pot on this board with KK. You agree on that?

If you rarely do that kind of stackoff and for reasons like betting patterns or live reads figured out this particular time villain had a flushdraw its impressive play by you for sure, my hat off for you

My point was just that many players execute wishful thinking in these kind of spots, because they cant let go of their overpair that they have fallen in love with. The say to themselfes "i know villain has a flushdraw here" and looking for reasons to ship when they really cant know what villain has when he is giving you this kind of heat.

When i read threads like this its just show me how much value it is to fastplay sets on the flop.

Putting it all-in on the flop is flipping coins (against the villain's actual hand, and it's close to 50/50 against a generic A-hi flush draw). Can we do better by flatting the raise and bombing a non- non-A turn?

Some players do this, but winning players know when to trust their reads - whether it's confidence with one pair against a LAG or the sick feeling in the gut against a nit.

Against the combo draw, it is 52/48. Against an A high flush draw, it is 43/57 and against lower flush draws it is 31/69. Playing against all of those, I like my chances

Huh? I would imagine that competent Villains would be flatting a flop raise with 1 pair type hands, not 3betting. You 3bet over pairs and Jx in this spot?

How about against sets? Gotta put those in Vs range too. I'd rather be shoving with the combo draw than with KK here.

You are missing out in a huge fundamental concept of flop ranging. You are at best flipping.

Put another way, vs. pretty much the nut low of villains range, you are flipping.

Put another way, you are HOPING that you are flipping.

Hoping (or "feeling" or "reading" or w/e) that you are against exactly a combo / nut flush draw here is very wishful ranging and even then you are flipping.

+1

Interesting that you write pretty much my exact my points earlier ITT and your post here nails it, especially the bolded part in your post.

Considering I witnessed villain shove with nothing, no pair, no draw on more than 1 occasion, in this session, I think you're giving him too much credit.

Understand...he has a total airball range that not many have in this spot but I think point is he has a range that is crushing your OP too. Against some players the hands that crush you may make up most of his range but against this player it may only account for a sliver of his range. Point is that it has to be included.

this, also your small raise rizing may have led her to 3bet with a weaker than perceived range by

therefore your combo draw is probably way favored over her range,
all in

Similar thing happened to me last night is a 1/2 game. Flopped top pair with a flush draw against AA. He bet, I raised, he shoved, I called. I hit the flush on the turn and stacked him. I realized that at about 50% equity on the flop I was flipping for his and my stack. Since we weren't that deep in a 1/2 game I was okay with that.

In this situation you're at the same equity against most of her entire range but deeper. Do you want to flip for her stack? Because by shoving here that's what you are essentially doing. I think with the pot odds you can call her raise and reevaluate the turn. Assuming you are able to fold if you brick the turn.

I am not big on flat calling her flop bet given the global tendency to CB and the fact that a call probably polarizes our hand and prevents us from ever getting paid if the flush hits the turn. But you have to assume a possible over-pair to the board and a re raise or even a shove. I would have went to $140 and hoped she would just call. But would be prepared to call a raise and almost always fold to a shove this deep.

This.

You don't need a plan if she flats. You need the know what you are doing if she 3B or shoves. If she flats we get to see the next card.

yea this. No offense OP, but this is really, really standard. I'm not really sure what there is to think about here.

If you have an aversion to getting it all in with a small equity edge, then just flat the flop and see a turn card.