Hero ~$1.5k UTG - TAG image; most of my table at this point are relatively new and were not here when hero built stack up. Have been playing pretty snug overall.

V1 ~$450 SB - is a somewhat thinking player. prob a tad too loose at times to be called a TAG. has had some conversations with hero before, and so I think he would view me as a competent TAG

V2 ~$1.1k BTN - loose/passive preflop. will bet hands post flop when he makes a hand. V2 has gotten the best of hero in a couple hands.

V3 ~$500 MP - typically plays bigger games but is so far playing TAG



OTTH:
Hero 9h9c raises to $25
V3 call
V2 call
V1 call

Flop (~$100): Ts8c6h
V1 check
H check
V3 check
V2 check

Turn (~$100): 4s
V1 check
Hero bets $50
V3 folds
V2 calls
V1 x/r to $160
Hero tank jams


Ultra spew? ok? Obviously not standard, and not doing this all the time. Felt like it was a good spot, but curious to hear thoughts. Thanks.

Bet the flop around $50.

Flop bet solves all of your problems. Why would you not cbet unless you flop a monster? And on this flop how could you possibly flop a monster? You should never check a set here with the board texture and so many villains in the hand.

Betting flop is pretty terrible.

I'm checking back this flop & looking for a good ole cheap showdown. Might call a street, two from someone who bluffs or overvalues (would bet a range we beat). I'm assuming you tried to turn your hand into a bluff vs someone who'd normally stay out of your way. I just don't think we're repping much here except a set of 4's, which would be sort of random. Your overpairs lead flop as well as sets too often. Easy laydown IMO, just don't think we have any fold equity here.

So you just give up with one over and you also have a gutshot?

I just don't understand how a TAG would just check and call down two streets against virtually any opponent in this spot.

I'm not turning my hand into a bluff vs V1.... while I don't rep much here, I think we can think the same vs V1. Except 44, I'm not sure what V1 is repping at all. He may or may not be capable of turning 77 into a bluff (blocking 97), but he is definitely capable of seeing that I checked flop and likely don't have a super strong hand, and turn his hand into a semibluff (i.e. FD, 35s if he has that, 77).

sorry I don't really understand what you're saying.

Why would you bet flop? I'm actually asking and not being an ass. But I agree with SABR42 and others that betting this flop with our hand into 4 people is bad.

Because we often have the best hand and can get called by worse. This is probably the worst hand I am betting that I would consider a value bet. I defaulted to $50 but I think I would actually bet $40 given where I think we stand and wanting to get value from worse.

I think there's a difference between playing TAG and trying to win every pot. It's fairly easy to exploit someone constantly c-betting. In general, the more players there are in a pot, the less likely we can bluff or extract value from worse hands when we ourselves are weak.

@johnnybuz I get the smaller c-bet size, but im not sure we "often" have the best hand vs 4 other people. All players here have hands like T9s/JTs/QTs/KTs/ATs in their ranges. I am more likely to bet this flop in position vs 2 others, but 4-way and OOP is far less appealing. And yeah, we can get called by worse since this hand does not hit our UTG PF range super hard, but we have 99, having double blockers to the most obvious draw on this board.

I understand what you are saying, quantum. I would consider myself TAG but sometimes LAG. I cbet bet a high percentage of the time which is profitable for me in the game I play. A cbet for me here, would be pretty much almost top of my range so it would be a no brainer for me. Plus you always are able to read people better when you put the pressure on them.

how is this the top of your range? do you not have AA/KK/QQ/JJ/TT/88/66? If 99 is near the top of your range here, you are opening WAY too many hands UTG.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eric5556 View Post
Flop bet solves all of your problems. Why would you not cbet unless you flop a monster? And on this flop how could you possibly flop a monster? You should never check a set here with the board texture and so many villains in the hand.


Well I guess what I meant to say is in my game I'm sometimes usually fairly aggressive and I would never check a monster hand in this situation or even a top pair hand. The aggressive regs would just pounce on me and I would have no idea where I stood in the hand.
I guess a lot has to do with your image and your opponents.

I'd check the flop but there's some merit in betting.

Turn looks good. Your bet looks weak as hell and he doesn't rep much. You have outs against everything as well.

Yah people play Tx and they also play tons of other hands that don't include Tx. We've got second pair and block 98. I'm not about to give 4 people a free card when our equity is highest on the flop.

I'm b/f this hand and feeling pretty damn fine about it. What's our alternative, x/f the best hand when someone bluffs after the PFR x or trying to wizard call our way down to showdown?

Here's how our hand fares vs. reasonable calling ranges to our MP open. I don't know what more we can ask for than ~37% in a 4-way pot where our equity will only go down as streets progress.

Not really sure what villain is repping there and hero's turn bet looks really weak so I'd be really suspicious of that $160 c/r. I don't think jamming is ultra spew at all and I'd be pretty reluctant to fold in that spot. Jamming is ultra spew if his range is really strong here but I seriously doubt it is.

Villain's x/r is usually going to be 2pair+ even if hero's turn bet looks like hero turned a draw/doesn't have a pair. Villain can be bluffing, but most often they're not when they raise turn.

Don't expect them to fold 2pair+.

I think shove turn is spew unless hero has some sort of solid read on villain.

Grunch. Bet flop and fold turn. Not close tbh

Anytime we bet the flop and have to check the turn oop on a wet ish board, that sucks and is a line we want to avoid aside from when we have a very particular read.

Good flop check, good turn bet, and I like the turn shove as well. Player dependant, but with your read it I like it. We have great blockers to the nuts and can improve to nut ish hands. Prob ahead about 65% of the time. If villain is button clicker sometimes i could see Tx folding but this would be a weird line for villain.

If we're otb cbet flop ainec, maybe even if theres 1 behind us. But 2 is too much

Hands seems fine, but I'd fold to the turn raise. Also would make it 4x pre and not 5x

@johnnybuz - thanks for running the numbers. i'm still unsure about flop bet. if we bet flop, get called, it's so hard to play the turn OOP on so many turn cards IMO....

@niceguy22 i dont really see villain folding Tx given his stack size, but maybe a small % of the time. Big thing though is that I just don't really see villain checking flop and turn with Tx, and i certainly don't see him x/r just Tx. Different if T is not a spade, and villain turned something like JsTs/QsTs/KsTs/AsTs/etc.


@Minatorr - my room mostly opens to 5x. Given that, would you still just make it 4x? I tend to make it 5x from EP and 4x from LP. Also, do you think the turn 3! jam is spew?


@pocketzeroes - sure, in general, most x/r are 2p+. my point is that in this particular hand, I don't think villain ever has 2p+. what 2p+ does he play like this? sure some small % of the time he is checking flop/turn to trap against a hand like I have, or hoping something turned a FD and will bet so he can x/r his set. But way more often than not, unless he has 44, he has some type of FD/semi bluff hand. Does not ever have 84/T4, and maybe 64s. Even 64s I expect him to just lead out turn.


Just to be clear, I am not turning my hand into a bluff vs V1. I think V1 is more than capable of making a move here, and I think given action, I almost always have the best hand here. He does not x/r Tx, and it's hard for him to play 2p/sets this way. I expect to see 77, 35s, turned FD here a lot. I am jamming to force V2 out of the hand. While I expect V2 to always bet Tx on the flop, he can sometimes check it back I guess - we only have a couple hours of play together. He is never calling $1k with just Tx. I protect equity against V2 by jamming, and feel very good about my hand vs V1.

If your room standard is 5x, then it's fine. 5x from EP and 4x from LP seems fine too.

I think the 3-bet turn jam is a little spewy. First, I think it's more likely he'd just lead with a turned spade/combo draw once it checks around. Yeah sure you block the nut straight, but his turn x/r'ing range 4-way is generally going to be value oriented. You are drawing very thin vs his value range, and even vs his semi-bluffs he has good equity. I dont really expect him to r/f here once he put in almost half his stack.