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Old 08-19-2017, 09:34 AM   #1
Ranma4703
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[2/5] Bottom two pair, unraised pot, drawy board

Villain 1: recently sat with 1k in mostly black chips, young guy with headphones and a hoodie (HJ)
Villain 2: Old man who limps most hands he plays, a little loose preflop, pretty tight postflop (BTN)

3 limps to me in BB, I check 69
Flop: Q96 ($22)
I bet $20, villain 1 calls, villain 2 makes it $70, I call, villain 1 calls

Turn: 4 ($232)
I check, v1 checks, v2 bets $150, I fold
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Old 08-19-2017, 01:35 PM   #2
CallMeVernon
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Re: [2/5] Bottom two pair, unraised pot, drawy board

Stack sizes?

Also, why put in more money on the flop if you're going to fold on one of the best turns for your hand?
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Old 08-19-2017, 04:09 PM   #3
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Re: [2/5] Bottom two pair, unraised pot, drawy board

There are 3 combos of QQ, 2 of Q9s, 1 each of 99/66 for a total of 6 that are ahead. If you think he takes this line with KK+/AQ, since he mostly limps, I think you have to call a blank turn. Absent that, probably folding flop to tight post player after hero leads into two.
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Old 08-19-2017, 08:28 PM   #4
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Re: [2/5] Bottom two pair, unraised pot, drawy board

How deep are we versus V2? I'm tempted to 3! the flop as we block 99/66 and he should never have QQ here.

If he's got Q9, whatever, we are going to lose some money.
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Old 08-20-2017, 05:22 PM   #5
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Re: [2/5] Bottom two pair, unraised pot, drawy board

Pretty trivial fold on the flop. There is a lot to be said for not going broke in a limped pot.

Since villains range is wide he has a lot of Q9, Q6, 96 type hands in his range. Obviously still has 66 and 99. We do really bad vs that range which should constitute the biggest portion of his range. A limpy old guy showing aggression tends to indicate great strength. Sure, this board has all sorts of straight flush draws, nut flush draws, pair and a flush draw, but I would discount these heavily based on villain description. Then there's a question of whether he ever has AA/KK/QQ here. I'd discount that quite a bit given his position. I assume he raises some hands so we can probably safely assume that he raises AA/KK on the button virtually always.

Anyway you cut it though we are in horrible shape vs the hands that have us beat and flipping vs many of the hands we have beat (we are actually a slight dog to JTcc). Also, players like this that see a lot of flops tend to not go crazy with a hand like AQ here (ie they pretty much fit the description you posted, loose pre, but tight post). The guys that tend to get crazy with 1 pair type hands are the preflop nits.
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Old 08-20-2017, 05:24 PM   #6
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Re: [2/5] Bottom two pair, unraised pot, drawy board

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Originally Posted by johnnyBuz View Post
If he's got Q9, whatever, we are going to lose some money.
That seems like good poker.
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Old 08-20-2017, 09:18 PM   #7
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Re: [2/5] Bottom two pair, unraised pot, drawy board

I don't think taking one off on the flop vs said villain is bad as he will play all turns extremely straightforwardly, as played fold turn because old men may raise huge draws on the flop but rarely continue on the most brick of turns.
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Old 08-20-2017, 09:24 PM   #8
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Re: [2/5] Bottom two pair, unraised pot, drawy board

wow I don't think I would every fold the turn? Maybe if V2 led into 2 players, but not after check check.

V2 can often think a Q is good here and is up against draws he is trying to bet out. I think that balances out the bigger 2 pair hands.

I call turn and hope to check down river, maybe call a reasonable bet based depending on card/sizing.
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Old 08-20-2017, 09:30 PM   #9
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Re: [2/5] Bottom two pair, unraised pot, drawy board

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That seems like good poker.
12 combos of AQ vs. 2 combos of sets. Yah lets fold flop. That seems like good poker.
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Old 08-20-2017, 09:46 PM   #10
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Re: [2/5] Bottom two pair, unraised pot, drawy board

Old men who are loose pre and tight post don't bet that big with 1 pair hands multiway in most games I play..but it really boils down to what old man makes a 2/3 pot sizing with multiway. Upon running it on PokerCruncher, Im probably playing this spot too nitty as vs an (admittedly wide for turn sizing range of)...one combo of AA, one combo of KK, AQs, AQo, QKs, QKo,QJs, QJo, 1/2 combo of QQ, 66, 99, Q9,Q6s, Kc10c, Ac6c and 7c8c, we have 58.16 % on the flop and 66 percent on the turn, without paying attention to player ones range.This is where it gets murky as if player one has a balanced, check call, check raising range on the turn it makes this spot pretty hard to make profitable.
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Old 08-20-2017, 09:47 PM   #11
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Re: [2/5] Bottom two pair, unraised pot, drawy board

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12 combos of AQ vs. 2 combos of sets. Yah lets fold flop. That seems like good poker.
I would assume that a loose pre flop old man, that plays straightforward post would have a slightly wider range pre and more narrow post.
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Old 08-20-2017, 09:52 PM   #12
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Re: [2/5] Bottom two pair, unraised pot, drawy board

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I would assume that a loose pre flop old man, that plays straightforward post would have a slightly wider range pre and more narrow post.
These guys area a dime a dozen. They don't raise AK/AQ and then are amazed when their TPTK loses.
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Old 08-20-2017, 09:54 PM   #13
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Re: [2/5] Bottom two pair, unraised pot, drawy board

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I would assume that a loose pre flop old man, that plays straightforward post would have a slightly wider range pre and more narrow post.
His ridiculous post shouldn't be dignified with a response.

As for the hand, we just showed great strength by betting pot on the flop and now an old man who plays pretty tight straight forward postflop is just shoveling money into the middle.
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Old 08-20-2017, 10:01 PM   #14
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Re: [2/5] Bottom two pair, unraised pot, drawy board

Grunch. I fold flop vs described villain and action. Sucks when he has super weird limped KK/AA/AQ but meh. Don't hate calling the flop but I guess we're hoping the turn goes x/x or we hit a 9 or 6 if we're just x/f turn. This definitely isn't a trivial fold.

As played bleh. This spot really sucks. It's really close but yeah I guess I fold as well. Just when I fold here I hate my flop call even though I know there's no logic to it.

Last edited by Jarretman; 08-20-2017 at 10:10 PM.
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Old 08-20-2017, 10:03 PM   #15
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Re: [2/5] Bottom two pair, unraised pot, drawy board

I stack off here, 9-6 is my fav hand, the difference is I raise preflop and the flop might never occur as V2 either repops in which case I most likely fold or V2 folds. So no stack off after all.
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Old 08-20-2017, 10:11 PM   #16
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Re: [2/5] Bottom two pair, unraised pot, drawy board

After all the math I guess it boils down to being player dependent and without knowing the player, its a population read. This spot might be a good place to stack in L.A. but a terrible spot in Las Vegas (all other things being equal). I personally lean towards call flop, fold turn, but its possible that I have gotten my head beaten in vs. weirdly Loose passive, tight post flop old men a.k.a. almost every older villain at the 3-5 game at Talking Stick.
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Old 08-20-2017, 11:23 PM   #17
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Re: [2/5] Bottom two pair, unraised pot, drawy board

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Originally Posted by adam levine View Post
After all the math I guess it boils down to being player dependent and without knowing the player, its a population read. This spot might be a good place to stack in L.A. but a terrible spot in Las Vegas (all other things being equal). I personally lean towards call flop, fold turn, but its possible that I have gotten my head beaten in vs. weirdly Loose passive, tight post flop old men a.k.a. almost every older villain at the 3-5 game at Talking Stick.
On another note, how is talking stick briefly. I feel like I am called there every few months in references in conversation and in just in general but I have never been.
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Old 08-21-2017, 11:36 AM   #18
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Re: [2/5] Bottom two pair, unraised pot, drawy board

I fold the flop vs. a tight-post old man. Is he really limping AQ from BTN? Maybe he raises KQ? The only way I might call flop is if I (hero) am seen as loose and will bet a lot of draws. We still have V1, though, and V2 is raising two of us, so just fold. Bottom two against tight three-betting players is usually a loser.

Definitely folding turn, especially after checking. If you call flop, why not bet or call that blank turn?
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Old 08-21-2017, 12:05 PM   #19
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Re: [2/5] Bottom two pair, unraised pot, drawy board

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Originally Posted by Javanewt View Post
I fold the flop vs. a tight-post old man. Is he really limping AQ from BTN? Maybe he raises KQ? The only way I might call flop is if I (hero) am seen as loose and will bet a lot of draws. We still have V1, though, and V2 is raising two of us, so just fold. Bottom two against tight three-betting players is usually a loser.

Definitely folding turn, especially after checking. If you call flop, why not bet or call that blank turn?
My reasoning was basically, I am seen as very aggressive, villain could be raising a worse one pair hand on the flop, but on the turn he would be afraid of building a big pot with one pair so would check it back if he didn't have me beat.

I folded the turn, the hand went to showdown and
Spoiler:
which was very unexpected
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Old 08-21-2017, 12:40 PM   #20
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Re: [2/5] Bottom two pair, unraised pot, drawy board

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Originally Posted by Dream Crusher View Post
His ridiculous post shouldn't be dignified with a response.

As for the hand, we just showed great strength by betting pot on the flop and now an old man who plays pretty tight straight forward postflop is just shoveling money into the middle.
Quit poker dude.
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Old 08-21-2017, 01:10 PM   #21
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Re: [2/5] Bottom two pair, unraised pot, drawy board

I'm not saying you should quit poker but you should probably quit posting strategy if you are going to post stupid things like his range is AQ and sets in this spot.
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Old 08-21-2017, 01:11 PM   #22
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Re: [2/5] Bottom two pair, unraised pot, drawy board

doesnt folding turn after calling flop seem bad?

like if we continue flop, don't we have to continue on blank turns? villain is telling us that he either has 96o beat on the flop or has a ton of equity i.e. JTcc, 78cc, A6cc, etc.

given that we call flop raise, shouldn't we def continue on turn? just seems like calling flop raise and folding to blank turns is really bad.
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Old 08-21-2017, 01:36 PM   #23
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Re: [2/5] Bottom two pair, unraised pot, drawy board

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I'm not saying you should quit poker but you should probably quit posting strategy if you are going to post stupid things like his range is AQ and sets in this spot.
I said his range was primarily AQ. He showed up with KQ which doubles the number of combos we crush.

There's a reason why 6709 of your 6714 posts are in the chat thread. Stick to your wheelhouse.
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Old 08-21-2017, 02:02 PM   #24
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Re: [2/5] Bottom two pair, unraised pot, drawy board

Your post that I referenced was silly and added nothing to the discussion.

I'm positive that out of my 20k+ posts on this site, I have more strategy posts than you. Let's not forget that you have a few thousand posts in the winrate thread talking about how you were break even for 1150 hours which is pretty much impossible for any good player at live low stakes. By contrast, I actually played this game for a living, rarely booking a losing month (but when i did it was at 5/T).

That being said, if we are going to be results oriented the villain did show up with a hand we were ahead of, so it's likely you nailed down his range better than I. I'm not above giving you credit for that and admitting defeat in this spot. Good job. Although, it is ironic that you still lost the pot. Maybe this is how you go 1150 hours without showing a profit.
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Old 08-21-2017, 07:17 PM   #25
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Re: [2/5] Bottom two pair, unraised pot, drawy board

Johnny buz did not start this thread and I folded turn
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