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Old 07-25-2017, 06:36 PM   #26
MikeStarr
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Re: 2/5 Black aces

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Originally Posted by JB Clark View Post
I"m checking back all Kings and 8s ott because JTs gets there. Checking back Q also. Betting all other cards prob

Imo JT is all that beats me.

Call or fold?

@mikestarr...i hate people that post hands seeking advice but never give it out. Every time you post a response its a snarky comment and not advice. Im not into selfish a- holes. This is give and take, if you are posting hands, give something back. I"ve seen a lot of very gracious and honest responses to your threads and you give back nothing

Do you have an opinion on river or not?
LOL. Ive posted tons of advice, but nobody likes my lines so I pretty much stopped posting. I got tired of wasting my breath. I wont waste any more on you either.
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Old 07-25-2017, 06:40 PM   #27
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Re: 2/5 Black aces

Villain is very likely to play QJ like this, fascinating point
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Old 07-25-2017, 06:46 PM   #28
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Re: 2/5 Black aces

Raising 2.5% of effective is a mark of a beginner that don't how to handle the game and the relationship between stack/hand/bet preflop with AA.

See how you lose with AA the entire stack of $1000 because you didn't manage to blow him away or to force commitment preflop. Is he making that play with AQ or KQ? - I don't think so, (is there anybody with JT that could have been blow away preflop?)

Just because you know you had your opponent beaten preflop doesn't mean you should let him in the pot and leave substantial stack behind with AA. You can’t stop more cards from coming. And if your hand has little chance to improve significantly, you may very well be in an untenable situation. (1) where your only hope is that you have the best hand now and (2) that it stands up.

Last edited by outdonked; 07-25-2017 at 06:57 PM.
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Old 07-25-2017, 07:33 PM   #29
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Re: 2/5 Black aces

QJ?!? The only people who play QJ this way are whales.
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Old 07-25-2017, 08:06 PM   #30
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Re: 2/5 Black aces

If you think your flop play is gto and won't budge off that, you're really not going to like any response you get here
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Old 07-25-2017, 08:18 PM   #31
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Re: 2/5 Black aces

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So fuggetabout flop. Im not apologizing for raising with best hand
Is there anyone else in the 2+2 universe who thinks 3-betting the flop against this V with one pair is even possibly a good line?

I think most people even think the bet/call line is a little ambitious against this V.
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Old 07-25-2017, 08:34 PM   #32
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Re: 2/5 Black aces

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This is definitely not true. John Nash proved that there are n- 1 inflection points in a multiplayer zero sum game. There are 3 GTO solutions in the hand OTF. I imagine they are check, bet call and 3bet. Bet/fold is stupid

All of the plays are correct but mine is best because v never limps 99 and QQ or 69 Q9. Hands in his limp call rangethat connect are JTs 66 QJs QTs KQs 89s 78s

Middle pair never chk raises

So fuggetabout flop. Im not apologizing for raising with best hand

So at river

QJs QKs JTs thats it for value...78s as a bluff

Villaim isnt good imo btw. Might not think betting Qx for value is turning his hand into a,bluff
If what you say is true, all three strategies have equal EV so there is no "best" since they're all equal. Please post your GTO strategy for all betting rounds in this situation to back up your claims (but don't get the thread locked for veering off topic).

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Old 07-25-2017, 09:01 PM   #33
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Re: 2/5 Black aces

Also OP, applying Nash equilibrium to a 2/5 game where it seems everyone kind of sucks is not a good way go go about things.
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Old 07-25-2017, 09:28 PM   #34
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Re: 2/5 Black aces

This thread is dildos.

You come asking for what people think they say what they think your answer is you know exactly what V has.

The way the hand played out, V either has a flopped set that he was perfectly willing to let you bet the turn for him so he could GII since you 3b his c/r on the flop. Or he has a naked Q or he rivered the straight. All are plausible lines for a generic tight V with the naked Q being only a possibility if V is playing level games w/ you.

You never said anything about V except he's tight pre and went into a meta discussion about 12% v 20% gto but the single most important question is V's post flop tendencies which are apparently irrelevant because your flop play is correct.

You said he has an extremely narrow range and you know what that is. Just post a thread, hey, I had this hand where I knew exactly what V had and he did.
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Old 07-25-2017, 09:53 PM   #35
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Re: 2/5 Black aces

Trying to give the dynamic between villain and I. He percieves me as loose aggressive because i am aggressive but loose vs him. I"m tag and lag. If you are loose you may peecieve me as tight.

He knows that my flop bet here is strong hands and napkins.

So i guess everyone here has already folded and hasnt a clue regarding river

I mean what are you guys doing otf to the cr? Lol folding? Im not being mean or anything but if you cant narrow down villains range in this spot then how can you do well at this game. V is 12% vpip, so he never plays the 2p hands u guys are afraid of and he always raises 99 and QQ. If you cant deduce that then just fold pre or raise huge so they always fold pre

Also, i prob c bet this flop a lot so aint ever checking AA. Bet/call fold blank turns seems like lighting money on fire, bet/fold is terrible, bet 3b seems best to me...v can check every turn and will heaps

Sheesh we have AA on a Q high board and 9 spr

Last edited by JB Clark; 07-25-2017 at 10:04 PM.
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Old 07-25-2017, 10:09 PM   #36
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Re: 2/5 Black aces

Cbetting this flop a lot 4 way with air would be a bit silly and catastrophically awful
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Old 07-25-2017, 10:17 PM   #37
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Re: 2/5 Black aces

Not really, there are a ton of good dbl barrell cards and a lot of my range has back door eq like a turned FD gutters. Im polarized OTF tho between very strong hands to very weak ones. I'm gonna bet this flop a lot. Checking back middle hands like JJ 9x and betting AK AJ and a lot of stuff that i can stab. Dbl barrelling some turns

Its still kinda cheap to try n win now with garbage and its a hard board to call down oop

So everyone hates the flop but doesnt have a better way to play it?

Check and let 3 hands draw for free. Lol bet/fold? Bet/call see what he does (which obv means folding the 8h)?

Not that i mind folding to the 8h. JT gets there.

Last edited by JB Clark; 07-25-2017 at 10:32 PM.
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Old 07-25-2017, 10:32 PM   #38
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Re: 2/5 Black aces

Jb, perhaps you could actually respond to critiques rather than inventing and arguing against straw man arguments. The thread will be much more palpable if you could honestly discuss a hand with people rather than in this petty fashion.

Stop talking about gto because you've been watching Doug Polk videos for 2 months without understanding anything.

Last edited by aoFrantic; 07-25-2017 at 10:59 PM.
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Old 07-25-2017, 10:38 PM   #39
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Re: 2/5 Black aces

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Villain knows me pretty well and probably thinks I am loose. The thing is, i am loose when ppl are tight and vice versa, as i usually just try and stay close to GTO and i think i have a better intuitive sense of the math than most.
What GTO ... man? You have no idea what GTO is in NL. This game we're talking about is NL cash play with people not with machines or limit-poker where Mr. David Sklansky and Mr. Mason Malmuth have solved the game long time even before you start messing up with your little color playing cards. The limit game is solved and the GTO has been done by S&M. Better get some books from "2+2 Books" before talking of GTO. I think David Sklansky's got a book on Game Theory if I'm not mistaken. That book is one of the best on GT but hard to digest for my little brain of card hustler.

Am I right?

Last edited by outdonked; 07-25-2017 at 10:53 PM.
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Old 07-25-2017, 11:09 PM   #40
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Re: 2/5 Black aces

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Jb, perhaps you could actually respond to critiques rather than inventing and arguing against straw man arguments. The thread will be much more palpable if you could honestly discuss a hand with people rather than in this petty fashion.

Stop talking about gto because you've been watching Doug Polk videos for 2 months without understanding anything.
I met doug a long time ago in vegas cash games and had no idea he would become an icon in poker. I knew he was good tho.

Not a single person has suggested how theyd play it but i played the flop the way i wanted to play it and did not seek advice about it. I figured to have the best hand so i reraised. If i didnt think i had the best hand i would not have done that.

I think v may have JTs here but the real question is if he bets, how much to call for? If he bet 275 would u call?

Fold or call for 450?

Im going to spoil this thread soon coz ita not going anywhere. I know v's range to get here so i prob shouldnt have posted this hand. Its a simple math problem in the end. Wanted to figure out if any other hands besides JT beats me and im convinced there is not

Last edited by JB Clark; 07-25-2017 at 11:17 PM.
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Old 07-25-2017, 11:29 PM   #41
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Re: 2/5 Black aces

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.......The thing is, i am loose when ppl are tight and vice versa,
This is for you education from my

We cannot have it both way. Being loose or tight and vice versa according how the villain's play. It doesn't work the way people think. Why?

If you play correctly tight because he's loose he is also correct to be loose because you are tight. When you go vice versa and play loose against his tight play you guy are both correct one against another. It cannot be any other way. Moronic paradox! No one gets the upper hand. Can you see where the mistake is? - read the again

This concept of tight vs. loose and vice versa it's not gonna bring the money out of the game. The money are hidden in places you cannot believe and cannot reach them with standard play.

Think about a little deeper: Who's correct? the loose villain vs. tight villain or the tight villain vs. loose villain? Both play optimal against each other at the same time and nobody wins. This is for sure. All poker player suffer of a malady that they want it both ways. That's the impossible way to reach the hidden money.

Villain seeing you playing loose so he continue playing tight. He's correct and you are correct. You change to tight, he sees you and he's continuing to be loose. Both correct vs. each other at the moment of the action. Where is the beef, pardner? - Where are the money hidden?

Last edited by outdonked; 07-25-2017 at 11:36 PM.
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Old 07-25-2017, 11:30 PM   #42
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Re: 2/5 Black aces

66 obviously beats you as well and Q9s is definitely possible. All we beat is 3 unlikely combos of 87s.
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Old 07-25-2017, 11:34 PM   #43
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Re: 2/5 Black aces

If villains range is (66,JTs,78s+5% spazz) why not call flop and shove turn?

Or bet turn ap. I dont have a clue OTR because I literally never get in this spot. Tight Vs arent going to be bluffing OTR after getting 3b OTF with most of their bluffs. He also only has 3 combos of 78s now easy fold m8.
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Old 07-25-2017, 11:37 PM   #44
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Re: 2/5 Black aces

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This is for you education from my

We cannot have it both way. Being loose or tight and vice versa according how the villain's play. It doesn't work the way people think. Why?

If you play correctly tight because he's loose he is also correct to be loose because you are tight. When you go vice versa and play loose against his tight play you guy are both correct one against another. It cannot be any other way. Paradox! No one gets the upper hand. Can you see where the mistake is? - read the again

This concept of tight vs. loose and vice versa it's not gonna bring the money out of the game. The money are hidden in places you cannot believe and cannot reach them with standard play.

Think about a little deeper: Who's correct? the loose villain vs. tight villain or the tight villain vs. loose villain? Both play optimal against each other at the same time and nobody wins. This is for sure. All poker player suffer of a malady that they want it both ways. That's the impossible way to reach the hidden money.
Yeah its a zero sum game so playing loose vs tiight and tight vs loose breaks even. Its GTO. I play to break even and that wins when you play suboptimally. Disagree with the garbage line dont play GTO at low stakes. You can print money when ppl make mistakes and lose the least when they dont. Im not making my money off the good players but show me 2 good players at any 2/5 table and then i will think about adjusting my strategy
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Old 07-25-2017, 11:37 PM   #45
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Re: 2/5 Black aces

Actually the only thing I don't like about the flop is your raise sizing. Your raise is $135 and offered Villain 4-1 to improve on the next card. You are offering JTs(not hearts) almost exactly the right place to call. Going to $450 would have offered about 3-1 on the obvious (I don't see how villain has one but not the other.) straight draws. That leave about $500 to shove on the turn into $1k offering about 3-1 again to see the river. We can always abort the turn bet if we think he hits.
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Old 07-25-2017, 11:44 PM   #46
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Re: 2/5 Black aces

I'm ok with 3betting this OTF but I just 3bet all-in. Make him pay to draw and pay you off with AQ wahtever. No flush or straight yet so an ace can always save you if you're beat.
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Old 07-26-2017, 12:21 AM   #47
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Re: 2/5 Black aces

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Yeah its a zero sum game so playing loose vs tiight and tight vs loose breaks even. Its GTO. I play to break even and that wins when you play suboptimally. Disagree with the garbage line dont play GTO at low stakes. You can print money when ppl make mistakes and lose the least when they dont. Im not making my money off the good players but show me 2 good players at any 2/5 table and then i will think about adjusting my strategy
No, a low stakes you make money not by GTO but by doubling up or busting people. Playing for stacks when fish got TP or OP and thinks he's got the motherload of hand finally. Value betting too will bring money.

To do that:
I don't raise much before the flop. I just call. So you don't know what Iíve got when I call. I could have two connectors or I could have a big pair, you don't know. I never raise from any position pre flop - except very big with AA,KK or AK and even that in late position so that donkeys will call or even 3bet me.
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Old 07-26-2017, 12:28 AM   #48
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Re: 2/5 Black aces

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No, a low stakes you make money not by GTO but by doubling up or busting people. Playing for stacks when fish got TP or OP and thinks he's got the motherload of hand finally. Value betting too will bring money.

To do that:
I don't raise much before the flop. I just call. So you don't know what Iíve got when I call. I could have two connectors or I could have a big pair, you don't know. I never raise from any position pre flop - except very big with AA,KK or AK and even that in late position so that donkeys will call or even 3bet me.
This is why I love poker.

You don't need to be phil ivey to make money. Compare it to anything else in the world, you need to be top dog to make any kind of money. But not in poker, in poker you just need to be better then the other 8 players at your current table consistently. Money will flow. This also makes for an interesting situation: Even fishes can be sharks given a good location and a weak enough player pool.
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Old 07-26-2017, 12:31 AM   #49
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Re: 2/5 Black aces

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Actually the only thing I don't like about the flop is your raise sizing. Your raise is $135 and offered Villain 4-1 to improve on the next card. You are offering JTs(not hearts) almost exactly the right place to call. Going to $450 would have offered about 3-1 on the obvious (I don't see how villain has one but not the other.) straight draws. That leave about $500 to shove on the turn into $1k offering about 3-1 again to see the river. We can always abort the turn bet if we think he hits.
Yes. The raise size is GTO because it is offering villain 0ev. Neither one of us is making money when he calls for 135. I am happy with that because i have position and i think v wil make a lot of mistakes. GTO always appears aggressive imo

This is exactly what i was thinking and why i did abort the turn bet. Had already planned on checking a lot of the middle cards. In fact i think raising flop is better coz we have to check back 8 k q maybe 5 and tens too, 6s and 9s As may kill action. Im not as concerned about 78s coz that is prob outside villains pf range as tight as he plays so rly i dont hate 5s and Ts, may have bet those

Had i just called and v bets the 8 i may have had to fold. But i dont think he ever bets the turn when i 3bet so...

Last edited by JB Clark; 07-26-2017 at 12:48 AM.
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Old 07-26-2017, 01:04 AM   #50
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Re: 2/5 Black aces

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This is why I love poker.

You don't need to be phil ivey to make money. Compare it to anything else in the world, you need to be top dog to make any kind of money. But not in poker, in poker you just need to be better then the other 8 players at your current table consistently. Money will flow. This also makes for an interesting situation: Even fishes can be sharks given a good location and a weak enough player pool.
Yes, Yes, Yes

I agree many times over.
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