I think flop is fine but fold turn.

Thanks for the reply. You might not be betting the turn with your value hand? I think that would be a really bad play. You are not getting value from draws and give them a free card to beat you.

Imo, betting bigger on the turn is to protect your hand. If you bet small with your 2p or set or even straight and got called by fd and lost to flush on the river. That would be pretty bad. You should have charged the draws more on the turn. I get it we shouldn't be thinking our opponent is thinking the way we do. That's why I was asking for other ppl about the turn sizing.

If you were Vallian, what is your bluffing range? Or you'll never bluff here with this line? This flop is really bad for c- betting for pf raiser, so x/r with some draws should be +ev imo.

I'll post result later and I did made the call. Also do you think it makes him weak to call me on a clock only 30s after he announced all in? Is there any live tell here? He is new to the table and we don't have history, so it's unlikely for him to use reverse think here.

I'll post the result later.

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1)Playing poker is often a mix of several things to put weight on. Its not black or white, always several things to consider. I am betting this turn some portion of the time after raising flop with two pair/set, but not always as i feel like 7x (binking straight on the turn) is a decent chunk of my opponents callingrange on that flop. We are also vulnerable being out of position.

Alot of the time my opponent without a straight will be drawing extremely slim against two pair and for sure a set, so a possible free card doesent worry me that much really.


If i bet this turn with set/two pair or not depends on the type of villain i am facing really: is he fit or fold, can he pay me off with weaker hands and so on.


2) Again: your logic about betting turn big for "protection" is flawed. The pot is heads up and the flushdraw comes in on the turn= wich makes this flushdraw a very small part of our opponents complete continuerange here. Keeping the weaker parts of your range in the hand from villains perspective is much more important than "protecting" against a rare backdoorflushdraw. You are only gonna hit your flushdraw on the river around 15% of the time if you happens to have that draw, so villain WANT you in the hand if you indeed have the flushdraw.

If i was in villains shoes and had binket the straight on this turncard my hand is just smashing your range into pieces, so my only goal is to bet an amount wich you are gonna call and be sucked further into the hand with and setting up an easy rivershove.I would have made the turnbet something around the size your actual villain made in this hand, wich i think was brilliant sizing if he indeed have the straight.


3) Regarding the clock as i livetell i dont think we should put too much weight on it. Ive seen the clock calling thing being done by both bluffs, mediocre hands and nutted hands. Its no clear pattern to me here. Also livetells to me is ment to be the top of the iceberg if we have a very very close decision: wich i dont think is the case in this hand. We should weighten other factors way more, first and foremost villains aggressive line, betsizing and his willingness to play for stacks.



Edit: I see now that the flushdraw was there on the flop, and not backdoor on the turn. Mixed up with another hand, i am sorry for the confusion OP.

Disagree with anything other than call on the flop. A lot of players will try and c/r boards of this texture if they think your c/betting just to get you to fold two overs, or just fold your big pairs on the turn if they bomb/jam; plus you still have a lot of turn that can improve your equity.

He isn't likely to bet the turn big when it comes a 4 because he has a lot more 7x in his range than you do and the board in general is much better for him than you. I would fold the turn because at this point it feels like your only bluff catching and your bluff catcher isn't that good. The calling the clock on the river is scummy and probably just trying to tilt you into calling so it seems like an easy fold

It is for value if you give him a reasonable range.

If you plan on folding club rivers, call all others, and expect him to bluff with his air that often, then calling is correct. However all of his bluffs have equity. If he has a FD + 2 overs he has around 30% equity.

I started writing out the EV calculations but there are a lot of factors to consider.

It comes down to how often you think villain gives up on rivers. If you think he bluffs greater than 90% then sure you can flat turn. However I think it's a lot lower than that considering he likely knows that he has no fold equity with stack sizes and pot size. I'd expect him to give up far more often than bluff.

Whether to continue bluff catching or ship it depends on stack sizes.
Think about it in a different scenario.

Say we have KK on 5h7hAK. In this hypothetical, we KNOW villain has 68hh, 46hh, 69hh, or AA. He bets 100 into 100 on the turn with 100 left in stacks. Do we ship it, or call?

Depends on his bluff frequency on the river. If he always gives up on bricks, we always lose the last 100 when he has AA and never win the 100 when he has draws. If he always bluffs rivers, then we win the extra 100 half the time and lose the extra hundred half the time. We also get to fold draw completing rivers saving us the 100. Change his bluff frequency and there is a certain number where calling and shipping turn give us same EV.

Your hand is a bit more complicated because by shipping turn you will occasionally fold out better hands + you have some equity.

In this spot when stack sizes are such that a thinking villain just gives up knowing he has no fold equity, I want to make it so my EV is maximum and his is minimum. I want him putting as much as possible in when his equity is lowest to not allow him to save the rest of his stack and set his own price for his draw.

If you give him an unreasonable range (which is true sometimes) that includes total airballs then you are never folding any rivers so the 'save the money on club rivers part' drops out of the equation.

Also, 3-betting flop just lets him flip with the drawing portion of his range. No point in doing that when we can fold club turns saving our stack and put the money in on the turn when our EV is much higher. Stacks in on turn vs draw always >>>> stacks in on flop.

One last edit... if I am villain with 7x, I ship turn since my range still includes bluffs. If I am villain with xxcc I bet just about exactly what villain bet for fold equity, making my call if you ship still a bit +EV and I get to just give up on brick rivers since I know you are never folding saving half my stack.

You have 4 outs after the flop.

Results OP?

Agree with checking back the flop. V called out of the BB to a single raise so I'd think this flop hits his range hard and not worth a bet.

Betting the flop is ok though, but calling a raise is not. You could be almost dead or at best slightly ahead of JTcc, 54cc etc.

Def folding the turn. Bet sizing seems like hes setting up a river jam.

Check back flop.

As played, fold turn.

As played, fold river.

Feel like Jamming turn with a bluff catcher will be -EV, as it will fold out all his air that he'll bluff on the river if missed. Not sure how often he folds flush draw on a turn jam either.

Agree with you if he had a 7, jamming turn or bet bigger is the way to go. He definitely doesn't want to give me the odds to call for a potential river flush . Also, his turn bet ($140 to $160) has a ton of fold equity. I heavily discount 7 in his range after he bet $120 on the turn. Yeah, he bet small to set up a bigger river jam to have more folding equity. But his size won't make sense for his value hands at all.

If I call the turn bet, I'm calling all non flush river. Actually the river is a great card for us as it paired the board. Now his river shoving range contains more bluff(missed flush draw+small % of total air)than value hand(discount 2p+set+7). Actually we just need his value range to be smaller than 75% to make a break even call.

Calling turn and folding river is definitely -EV. In his shoe, betting turn but not jam river is burning money too.

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If you fold to a x/r with 98ss with such equity you should never open sc at late position. This flop is a great one for caller to put pressure on pre flop raiser. I think it's clear that we need to call flop x/r.

Turn sizing sets up jamming on river doesn't mean he has strong hands. He should bet bigger to protect his hand on the turn imo.

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Would you bet only $120 in to a pot of $240 if you have value hands? Why give your opponent odds to call for a flush?

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Yeah the two flush card are on the flop. If flop is rainbow and bdfd come on the turn I would snap fold.

Disagree with you that he is successful to have me call with bluff catcher on the turn with a small bet. He should expect a good player to not fold to river jam if called the turn. He should have bet the turn larger to protect his value hand and to have bigger folding equity for his airball.

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OP, you seem to have a really hard time letting this "protect against flushdraw" with a big bet thinking let go here?


I mean, i feel like i have offered you a pretty comprehensive explenation regarding this issue earlier in this thread but still you keep using this false logic as an argument against villains betsizing on the turn.


To sum it up: you guys arent deep enough for him to be concerned about you having a flushdraw and draw out on him on the river- his only goal with a valuehand on the turn (particularly 7x), is to keep you in the hand and massage the pot ready for an easy rivershove. From villains perspective hero doesent have enough implied odds to call this turnbet with the small amount of money we have behind, and he be happy to keep hero in the hand even if he knew you were on a flushdraw here.


Edit: You disagrees that villain got you to call on the turn with a bluffcatcher/top pair weak kicker? Thats a fact and exactly what happend regarding to your hand history in the opening post. What we dont know yet though is if he was airballbluffing or had a valuehand. Either way he got you to call the turn with a very weak hand, so IF he indeed had value here the bet was obviously perfectly sized because you are drawing extremely thin against all his valuerange and again he want you in the hand with the weaker parts of your range.

I'll post later. Discussion is still going on. Posting result will bias people's view.

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I appreciate you putting all this legwork into this spot. Some feedback:

1a) Unfortunately you got the positions wrong, which changes everything. But assuming that we are OOP to a formidable opponent (COvBTN): I would cbet a lot less than 37%. This flop is PFR cancer, and this flop is the poster child for dynamic flops, which heavily favors IP. In this hypothetical, I would check most KK and AA combos, and I would bet the 99/TT combos instead. 99/TT get considerable value from protection, and they don't defend nearly as well against a bet/bet/bet line which should be much of the focus of our defensive checks. I would also mix in some checks with 97cc, 55-no-club, etc.

b) Your bluffing range also seems to be very light on clubs. There are certainly a lot of club hands I would x/r (including many of the combo draws you included), and I would definitely x/c a lot of the Axcc with two overs, but if I'm forming much of a betting range, it would be heavy on clubs.

c) I would also mix more with more of the BFDs, especially x/c'ing any that are good enough to do so (eg: AQss+), and I would x/f some of the weakest hands in your bluff leading range.

2) This is all assuming that villain is a formidable opponent. We can safely assume that some MAWG isn't aggressive enough to "abuse position." This both means that our flop betting range can be heavy on bluffs (and mostly just betting whatever draws are strong enough to do so, with a small mix of x/rs), and that the value of getting 3 streets of value with hands like AA and 55 far outweighs what we can expect from him.

3) This assumes this is COvBU with us OOP, but as I mentioned above, we're not.

In spite of points 2 and 3, I still think this flop is so bad for us we should have a low frequency/big sizing strategy here, and we should be incorporating some check backs to keep him honest. This is why I'm checking back the top-pair+non-monster GSSD+low-BFD, and I would check back AJcc+, 5xcc, etc.

Appreciate your feed back. I'm waiting for more other ppl's opinion on this turn betting size.

Couple things why i think V should be large large with value hands
1) protect your value hand and chargr for draw. You made it sound like you are committed to this pot even if a flush come on the river. If you were Villain and bet small on the turn, would you x/c a jam on flush river? If so, your logic is right. But I would evaluate the call, as mostly you'll lose to a flush.

2) It's hard to balance your air with this small betting size on the turn. Betting $120 has way little folding equity than betting $160.


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I'd be worried assuming this guy is good enough to understand that his perceived range hits this flop harder than your perceived range as a LP pre-flop raiser, thus he c/r your bet on the flop. Its possible of course.

I'd prefer a check back but betting is warranted. I'm just not too happy about going to war with 98 on this board vs an unknown's aggression.

He can't really bet more on the turn because stack sizes would get awkward on the river.

I'd check back hands strong as AA no club.

No problem, happy if you can get anything out of my reflections regarding the many aspects of this hand- i am also enjoying the discussion.


1)By overthinking the protectingpart you are costing yourself potenially alot of money. What i would have done on the river if i was in villains shoes and the flush got there on the river is not black and white.It depends on alot of factors, for example my read on hero, how wide i believe his range is when calling the turn and so on.

I do believe that the flushdraw getting there is some of the worst rivercards for me both because my valuehands could have been outdrawn, but also its even harder to get more value out of hero here because there is even more combos that beat him now that the flush got there. I would probably have checked it the majority of the time as my standard line, expecting hero to play his range pretty much faceup at this point in the hand. That means i expect him to shove the rest in if he got the flush, and check down other parts of his range with showdownvalue- for example the kind of one pair hand you actually have in this hand. If i was villain i also have some flushes in my range here (semibluffing with a combodraw on the flop and binking flush on river), so its not like hero can abuse me if i do check the river and very few villains will put me in those kind of spots at this stakes.




2)Yes, we do give up a little bit of fold equity if we choose the smaller sizing. But as i have explained earlier, i think the pros outweigts the cons ablut choosing the smaller sizing on the turn.However the scenario where we are indeed bluffing with total air here woudnt come up that often, and when one of those times occure where we are going to two barrell bluff with air on this flop its nothing wrong with us choosing a bigger sizing to maximize our fold equity. That being said i also believe the 120$ sizing has alot of fold equity also, because it for sure feels like villain is setting up a rivershove. We just cant expect villain to shut down on the river and that wont happen very often either.After all he is check-raising us on the flop and firing again on the turn, we have to be prepared for everything is going in on the river the vast majority of the time here.

What is it about betting 120 into 220 that looks weak?
What does your range look like to villain? Surely your range has got to be more than just FDs?
If I was in villains spot I'd bet the same amount to get called by your pp and FDs? As an added effect, this bet sizing, might get into Hero's head as being weak and make hero spazz?
As I said earlier in the thread, when you call the flop, you are doing it because you feel you are ahead at that point in the hand.

For example putting villain on an inferior value hand and a big combo draw to boot, i.e. 78, 67, 57 or 4c5c, Ac5c. He will also have some FD + overs.
I'm ignoring his monster range of sets and flopped straights because we have position and can see what he does on the turn

When the 4 comes on the turn, most of his range gets there.
I'm done with the hand at this point

When the 5 comes on the river, his Xc5c gets there.

So you want to call here because you put villain on 3-4 combos of FD+ two overs and ignore the 20+ combos of hands that beat you ?

As I mentioned earlier, he looks like a pro. So my assumption is that he is aware of this flop isn't good for c-betting.

I agree with you that check back on this flop is safer against unknown player, especially some LAG. I'll check back my AA, KK with no club as well.

At the time we played, I would shove the flush river if he checked and fold if he shoved. This is the power of playing in position. By checking flush river, he basically told us that he doesn't have the flush. He has an capped range for us to exploit, but flush is still a decent chunk of our range. If you agree that he would fold 2p and straight there to a shove most of the time, calling the turn is having more merit now. Also at the early session of the game, it's good to know how V plays on this flop x/r pot, his range etc.

Our hand is only bluff catcher, so we for sure will lose the hand if we check back a flush river as V will shove all of his air on the river.

Hand Result:

Hero said "it would be really sick if you were bluffing here", then threw out a $1 chip to announce the call right before the clock ends.

Villain was really pissed off about Hero's call and flipped over pocket 2 for a pure bluff.

How do you know that villain will shove all his air on the river after we:

1) Called his flop checkraise


2) Called his 120$ bet on the turn


If villain is decent he has to know he has limited amount of fold equity on the river,considering how big the pot have becomed. My guess is that more villains than you think would give up if they are empty here, and just saving their remaining stack.

Thus, i think a competent villain is on an incredibly valueheavy range- not just on the turn barrell of 120$, but also if he choose to trippel barrell and shove the river.


Edit: and what do i know as villain was airballing the whole way

Thanks guys for your feedback, couple main take-away for me:
1) Against unknown aggressive player (w/o knowing his AF post flop), it might be better to just check back the flop to realize our equity. I would even check back hands as strong as AA,KK,QQ w/o bdfd.
2) Calling the turn bet is a really loose play, as I mentioned in original post. It's burning money against TAG or unknown. However against some LAG who has a high chance of bluffing, it might be +EV to call turn and any non-flush river. By calling the turn, we can also shove flush river when he checks to bluff him of hands as strong as straight, 2p. There is also merit of knowing the way V plays turn&river in x/r flop pot.
3) Calling clock isn't a great tell, as it's villain dependent. There are also lots of leveling war there. However, this was one of my reasons to call at that time. I may increase his pure bluff from 5% to 10% in his range.