Main V is a late 20's reg TAG player, possibly a pro, or at least likes to think he is. Very comfortable handling chips and cards and is friends with all the dealers. He spent a good part of one down talking strategy with a dealer. I also saw him bluff the river when he defended his blind multiway with QJo, called a flop c-bet with OESD, x/x, then bet $80 on the river when he missed.

V2 is an unknown older player who just sat recently. No reads except he's not very active. ~$400.

I'm mid 40's, working on being a reg in the room, mostly TAG image and not getting many good hands the last hour or two.

OTTH

V1 has $500 (max buy-in), H covers by < $100.

V1 opens UTG for $25 and gets 3 callers. H is on the button and calls with AQo. Both blinds fold.

Flop ($125): Q 7 8 rainbow.

V1 leads for $100. V2 calls. Hero ???

I honestly hate all my options.

I call here, planning to re-eval OTT. Our hand is too strong to fold here, but V is unlikely to have air betting in to 4 players, and the board isn't super wet, so raising seems spewy. He often has a PP 99-JJ or QJ-AQ TPs, as well as a few sets.

V2 has OESDs, TPGK, some 78s, and a few sets.

^Yup.

And with so many callers there is a good case to be made for 3betting on the button preflop.

I think I 3bet pre with all these callers. It's a great spot for it. Would be nice to know what V1's opening range UTG is, but if he's any good, it's pretty tight.

As played, flatting is good, but I might just let it go. Weak, maybe, but so many turns we don't like. About all we want is a Q -- maybe an A.

Perhaps a 3b pre might be better here. Even ip, I don't want to play AQo against 4 Vs. Flatting caps us and this limits our options post-flop.

We have to give V1 some credit for KK here, as we block QQ and AA. He can also have the mid/underset too. V2's call is suspicious because H is yet to act and V2's not getting the proper price to bink a straight. SPR is getting kinda low and V2, unless he's an idiot, must realize it's all going in ott so why try to draw to a straight here?

If we call, pot is 425 and eff SPR<1 to the turn. So the money is all going in ott. Therefore, I'm not clear as to what we'd be evaluating on the turn, wadr to Garick.

I think we have to jam or fold here. I agree with OP that I'm hating life and I'm especially hating that we didn't 3b preflop because now we're capped and I'm not sure what we can rep beyond a flopped set or exactly what we have.

So what FE do we have? V1 lead into 4(!) guys says "I have TP beat", V2 flat says "so do I and I'm not afraid of the capped BTN behind me". We've invested $25 Yankee dollars and I'm ready to fold and vow to 3b AQo otb rather than get felted near the bottom of my range.

+1.

I flat the flop bet. We have ultimate position and our flat will look very strong so no one will F around OTT. Folding is way too weak and raising is an overplay.

The evaluation is that if V bets again, we have more info and can potentially save our remaining $300. The other two flop options are both way worse, as folding is way too weak and shoving only gets called by hands that crush us.

So, if a Q (or maybe A) doesn't come on the turn/river, do we hope it checks to showdown? How likely is that too happen? And what if someone bets a Q or A turn? Gross.

Seriously, I just fold and kick myself for not 3betting pre.

Its a 3 way pot so it will have a different dynamic than HU. It will cause V to bluff less and only bet again when AQ is likely beat. IF someone bets an A or Q turn then we obviously go with it given stacks. I was simply arguing that folding right now is too weak and shoving is mega spew with no good outcomes for us.

And I agree, kick yourself for not 3! pre for sure. But once we are here, I still think calling is by far the best option on the flop.

I was going to respond to Spanishmoon's question, but shorn answered it as I would have.

I am on the fence about 3-betting pre, simply because a competent V opening early should have a very tight range. If a different V had opened, I definitely could get behind the 3! pre. As is, I started to suggest in my first post, but then was unconvinced, so I deleted that portion.

3bet pre, call now. Way too strong to fold to one bet.

I mean, we block AA/QQ/AK/AQ preflop, so unless he is a super nit, I like the 3bet pre. Particularly since we are offsuit and it's harder to play multiway.

Thanks Mr. G!

So how would you like to invest your dollars? Raising 50 preflop or calling off 100 for the mere option of evaluating this particular turn which is going to be jammed under nearly all circumstances?

The 3-bet crossed my mind and I considered my options for a good 15 seconds or so before I settled on flatting. V1 seemed competent and had not been very active from EP and I just thought his range was a little too tight to 3-bet. If the open had instead come from a gambly fish with a beer in front of him then I obviously like it a LOT more.

edit: But then, if his range is that tight, AQ does pretty poorly against that range and has some RIO problems with it. But folding preflop seems really gross so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Um. No it's not. It's a multi-way pot and our call shows a lot of strength. V would have to have a huge hand or a lockdown read to shove turn. If he does, I can fold a blank turn pretty easily.

I really don’t like calling here preflop hoping to hit to win (after so many players called in between). Seems like a good squeeze spot to me.

3b for sure
I mean the only reason we called pre is to flop TP and let V value own himself, and now we get the dream flop and we want to fold?

Am 3b pre a lot of the time here, despite the UTG open. Competent regs are not opening only AQ+, TT+ from UTG.

At 100BBs effective I'm pretty happy to rip it in here. If V2 wasn't involved then it would be an easy call. Yes, sometimes V1 has KK or V2 has 77, but I expect to be good a lot here, and expect one villain to be on a pure draw. Stack sizes are nice to make that expensive, plus we look a little bluffy with a jam.

I don't mind not 3 betting pre. I could really go either way on this one, but I totally get not squeezing an UTG open. As played I see literally no reason to raise, but folding makes even less sense and I'm shocked it was even suggested. If we raise, maybe KQ calls? I think we can get more by just calling and seeing a turn, but I think we're hardly ever behind.

Assuming everyone has ~$500 (1 buy-in here), how much do we 3-bet to? Also same question but everyone's got ~$1k (2/5 max where I play).

SPR is around 1 if we call. The money is going in ott. I have total respect for the excellent players ITT (including you) who recommend calling behind but I honestly cannot fathom their logic here.

Who has the range advantage? It’s V1 who raised pre and bet into the world, then comes V2 who flats knowing Hero can jam or call behind, then comes the Hero who closes the action. I think we’re usually behind here.

We pay 100 for the option to call the inevitable turn jam here and we have 6 cards that can improve our situation, some bricks that won’t alter the scenario and perhaps 20 that will give us heartburn. No me gusta.

Ding ding ding. MW pot is way more protected than HU. Biggest reason we can flat flop and fold to a turn shove.

I don't think flatting the flop bet looks strong at all. It looks like a Q or 9T, maybe 56. Would we really flat a $100 flop bet vs. two players with anything stronger when one now has $375 behind and the other has $275 and the pot will be $425? If so, what strong hands do we play this way? QQ?

Spanishmoon, SPR is a concept for TP heads-up and on the flop. The money is not necessarily going in OTT, for reasons posted above. I have no idea why you are so sure of this and feel like we are committed if it does.

Shorn7: Ding ding ding. MW pot is way more protected than HU. Biggest reason we can flat flop and fold to a turn shove.

Thanks to both of you for your patience ITT. IMHO, this is a super-complex spot and well worth studying more.

Let me ask you both to do a "thought experiment" here. What would you pay the Hero in this situation to take over his position "pre-$100 flat decision" in this hand? Would you pay $100? Or a lot less?

I don't want to get hung up on the specific terminology of SPR because my misuse of it obscures the essential point. This pot is most likely not getting checked down to the river because either 1) Brick will turn and V1 will jam to deny equity offering H and V2 2-1 to call; 2) V2 will improve and he will jam offering the same 2-1 or 3) we will bink A/Q and we will jam offering 2-1. If the players who improve ott don't jam, they're making a serious "fundamental theorem" error. (If the scenario doesn't change, why wouldn't V1 make at least the same 1/2 PSB ott? In that case, it's all likely going in otr.)

What does the matrix of payoffs look like here? (you can probability-weight them as you see fit - V1's range dominates this process for branch 1; H's bink rate dominates branch 3 and is clear, the other branches are more subjective):

1) we pay 100 to call down V1's likely 400 jam to win an 850 pot how often against V1's range (assuming V2 folds)? We have to be good vs. V1 50%+ to make this branch EV+. V2 also calls some percentage and sucks out or has us crushed from the jump. We fold incorrectly (nb shorn7) some percentage too! This first branch is the most likely branch and I have a hard time making it EV+.

2) Assume V2 improves and/or jams ott. I think it can be safely argued that the turn improves V2 as often as it helps us. We fold (correctly or incorrectly) some percentage, call V2 correctly some percentage (when V1 folds), get beat by both V1 and V2 some percentage and get beat by one of them some percentage. We beat both all-in otr some small percentage. Is this branch EV+?

3) We bink and jam and get no callers and take it down. We bink, jam and get called by one/both and MHIG. We bink, jam and lose some percentage to one or both. I think this branch is clearly EV+ but we bink only 13%.

4) We invest another 100, it's checked down to the river (mirabile dictu) and MHIG or we lose to a timid Villain. I doubt this branch is EV+ but it's debatable and it's the least likely branch.

The summation of these "branches" has to be EV+. We could debate this endlessly I suppose, but I cannot get there.

Thanks you guys again for a great conversation!