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Old 10-11-2017, 08:12 PM   #26
sai1b0ats
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Re: 2/5 AQo

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Originally Posted by Avaritia View Post
Dont open 5bbs pre utg
+1
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Old 10-11-2017, 10:53 PM   #27
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Re: 2/5 AQo

Basically, Vs who dont 3 bet light pretty much only show up with QQ+, maybe JJ/AK, so the exploitative play is you pretty much fold way too wide and just call with PPs to setmine when you have odds, and you 4 bet for value.

As the dude who called pre, yeah this was the bottom of my UTG range, and i had no reason to think he was 3 betting wide. AQo plays great vs Vs who are 3 betting you loght with Axs, but is incredibly weak against a value range, plus im playing OOP, so i shouldve folded. Am i really losing less than $25 on average by calling? Here i lost $1500 instead of $25 from RIO.

The bet sizing concern is lol. going $15-20 = you go 6 ways. Sometimes i go $30...

Last edited by Tomark; 10-11-2017 at 11:01 PM.
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Old 10-11-2017, 10:56 PM   #28
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Re: 2/5 AQo

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+1
No -1
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Old 10-11-2017, 11:07 PM   #29
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Re: 2/5 AQo

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No -1
Definitely ±1
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Old 10-12-2017, 07:33 PM   #30
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Re: 2/5 AQo

Late to the party but I think calling turn is >> shipping always here - you never* have AA or QQ while villain can still (obviously not many combos) but also you probably dont flat OOP w/ 66/77 that often against a 3bet (lemme know if im wrong?) so effectively your hand is pretty face up :/

If I'm of the opinion villain is willing to VB me lighter because I open a lot/I often have a wider range, I'm going to want to use my two pair hands more often to call down polarized TAG ranges as a means of protection for times when I'm closer to the bottom of my range. This discourages our villain to bet into us as much and we get to keep SPRs down thru hands so we can bluff turns or rivers when we want to.

If this is something your villain is capable of understanding, then right there might be sufficient evidence to flat turn and fold river jams/most bets etc.

*an insignificant % of time

as far 66/77 - I imagine the long term solution is to sometimes 4bet bluff some smaller PPs that you open from EP and sometimes flat. I guess you have enough IO for faltting 66 and 77 here though but still - your range is capped vs opponents.
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Old 10-12-2017, 07:39 PM   #31
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Re: 2/5 AQo

here's a follow up question: If i know my range is capped when i flat, does it make having a hand like AQ have any real value to flatting here? what does AQ do for our range on Qxx boards and villain pushes back? Especially if we think villain is capable of knowing this as well?

We are going to check call run outs that dont offer villain too much in the way of smashing us but we dont win much. Does it really offer much in the way of balance so that we can flat smaller SCs in this spot as well?
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Old 10-13-2017, 04:51 AM   #32
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Re: 2/5 AQo

Does anyone dislike V’s turn bet sizing considering OP almost wanted to fold top two here?
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Old 10-13-2017, 05:39 AM   #33
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Re: 2/5 AQo

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Originally Posted by momo_uk View Post
Does anyone dislike V’s turn bet sizing considering OP almost wanted to fold top two here?
Being results oriented, it wad probably a sign that v is maybe a slight mubsy type, and didn't want to play a river that had a third club. Depending on how sticky hero was, it could have also been just the belief that hero might stick around with any ace -x.

Depends on how v really saw h.
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Old 10-13-2017, 08:17 AM   #34
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Re: 2/5 AQo

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Originally Posted by Tomark View Post
Hero (UTG) raises to $25 with AQo
V (BTN) reraises to $70
Hero calls - (WRONG!)

Flop ($140) Qd7c6c
hero checks - (WRONG!)
V bets $55
hero calls (WA/WB situation unless he has SCs.)

Turn (250) As
hero checks (WRONG!)
V bets $225
First, calling a reraise with AQo is a mistake. If you raise like 1st one in and get 3-bet you drop AQo, drop all suited Aces from A9s down to A2s, drop T9s and 98s, 4bet with AA, KK and AK. Call his 3-bet with QQ-22 and all suited Broadways if you are deep. The offsuited hands are trash in 3bet pots, except AKo. You need "equity-when-called".

Now, the check on the flop and on the turn make no sense. Why check. - Oh, well, I know why because you've been the caller preflop. Limping and calling raises preflop create major and numerous implications at the flop and beyond that most players don't fully understand. The money we make are from player that mostly limp or call raises and check the flop and turn. You got to put yourself in a position from where you keep betting until opponent raises you. You reevaluate at that point but until that moment comes you keep on betting, but for this to work you got to abstain yourself on calling. Say, you call with AQo and missed the flop. What's your play? - Check and fold? - How about the flop is 8, 4, 2 rainbow or two tone? - what's your play on this abortion flop? - Or how about K, K, 3 flop? - Are you betting the way you should if you would be the preflop raiser and not the caller? - See, how many nasty implications are associated with calling?

How can you make money by calling, checking and folding. Those action don't put money in your stack. You got to do something else.

Last edited by GenghisKhan; 10-13-2017 at 08:33 AM.
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Old 10-13-2017, 08:24 AM   #35
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Re: 2/5 AQo

Sup outdonked
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Old 10-13-2017, 09:57 AM   #36
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Re: 2/5 AQo

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Originally Posted by cicakman View Post
Sup outdonked
This, pardner!

cicakman, I see a lot of benefits from having a standard 3x EP FIR vs ~average players when deep/cant set up good stackoff spots post. You are consistently suggesting larger open sizing in almost every thread. I assume this is because players in llsnl call too much pre and you want to get as much in as possible with an equity edge. This leads me to wonder.....

1. What range do you play first in from EP?

2. Do you ever vary preflop open sizing and if so, in what way?

3. Do you ever open limp from EP?

4. If you open wider than ~99+, AQ+ (I'm assuming you do) do you call 3bs from LP with your good drawing hands and try to play OOP?

I know EP FIR sizing has its own thread,(I just read the whole thing, lots of good stuff, mandatory read for anyone who hasn't seen it yet) but this hand really got me thinking about preflop play from EP especially deep with strong but not premium hands.

FWIW I ~always open to $10 from EP @ $1/$3 and turbo-muck this hand vs. ~95% of Vs and 4! vs. ~5%
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Old 10-13-2017, 01:09 PM   #37
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Re: 2/5 AQo

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Originally Posted by the_dude_174 View Post

4. If you open wider than ~99+, AQ+ (I'm assuming you do) do you call 3bs from LP with your good drawing hands and try to play OOP?
Dude,
You may be OK but I give you a better approach
Your range of playing, opening from any position except CO and BT has got to be something and very exactly (LOL) like this: 22+, A2s+, all suited Broadways JTs+, T9s down to 76s and AKo, AQo. That's 14%. In the CO and BT you add the marginal AJo, ATo, A9o, A8o, A5o, KQo, KJo, QJo, J9s, Q9s, K9s, K8s. That's 20%. In SB add some more like T8s, 97s, 86s, 75s, 64s, and all remaining offsuited Aces from A7o down to A2o.

You always come the 1st one in for a raise 5xbb and add $5 per each extra limper or $10 per extra limper in the 5-10 game. Yes, you raise with your entire playable range. This range is universal. It never change. If you get a raise upfront you assign villain a range that is kind of the upper half of the universal range. So, you compare where you stand with your hand vs. the upper half of the range. If your hand is in the upper part of the upper half of the range you 3! except you always 3! with AA, KK and A5s or ATs and if you get 4! you drop A5s/ATs and shove AA/KK. You constantly compare your hand with the universal range and use the middle line as reference. You play your hand vs. that sector of villain range in reference to where are you located, above or bellow the middle line. That's the magic question.

Calling only the 2! with QQ down to 22, all suited Broadways and 76s up to T9s. If you got a raise from the UTG you always drop AQo and 98s for obvious reasons to avoid to be nutted by AK.

You don't look to win money preflop. Your preflop play is to set you up to win money postflop. That's why you need "equity when called". You need "hits" on the flop. Trash hands and most unsuited hands don't generate "hits"
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Old 10-13-2017, 01:30 PM   #38
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Re: 2/5 AQo

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Originally Posted by flopturntree View Post
What? if you aren't calling 3b with AQ what are you calling with? Only AK+? that's absurd.. AQ is one of the hands at the top of our range. Folding to standard 3b here is suicidal/lighting money on fire even against some of the more tighter V's. Should consider 4b pre. As played folding is completely out of the question. This is a cooler, call or raise turn both have merits but folding is just ridiculous.
nope. this is a fold preflop. an easy fold.
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Old 10-13-2017, 01:59 PM   #39
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Re: 2/5 AQo

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Originally Posted by the_dude_174 View Post

I know EP FIR sizing has its own thread,(I just read the whole thing, lots of good stuff, mandatory read for anyone who hasn't seen it yet) but this hand really got me thinking about preflop play from EP especially deep with strong but not premium hands.
Are you refering to this thread?
https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/1...-much-1158380/

If not please link
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Old 10-13-2017, 02:52 PM   #40
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Re: 2/5 AQo

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Originally Posted by Rich Checkmaker View Post
nope. this is a fold preflop. an easy fold.
How does anyone ever call you if you are folding anything other than the preflop nuts to pressure?

I agree that checking down the road likely not great play, but fold preflop is disgustingly nitty, even oop.
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Old 10-13-2017, 03:44 PM   #41
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Re: 2/5 AQo

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Originally Posted by Nippleman View Post
How does anyone ever call you if you are folding anything other than the preflop nuts to pressure?

I agree that checking down the road likely not great play, but fold preflop is disgustingly nitty, even oop.

Ummmm...lol llsnl??

As just a general rule, calling PF 3bets OOP is usually a bad play. The vast majority of your RFI range from EP should be 4bet or fold. Stack sizes, table tendencies, specific V tendencies, dead $, history all are factors, but in 100BB cap games this generally holds pretty true. Also, at least in my room, 3bs are usually very value heavy so over folding a little pre isn't going to hurt us much. Not that I would do it in this spot, but I would much rather be oop in a 3bet pot with hands like 86s than AQo.

I've been buying in short (66bb) for months, playing extremely nitty pre, and I still get loose pf calls/get looked up light postflop by a lot of the same Vs.
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Old 10-13-2017, 03:45 PM   #42
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Re: 2/5 AQo

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Originally Posted by ZockenRobot View Post
Are you refering to this thread?
https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/1...-much-1158380/

If not please link
Yep, that's the one.
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Old 10-13-2017, 03:51 PM   #43
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Re: 2/5 AQo

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Originally Posted by GenghisKhan View Post
Dude,
You may be OK but I give you a better approach
Your range of playing, opening from any position except CO and BT has got to be something and very exactly (LOL) like this: 22+, A2s+, all suited Broadways JTs+, T9s down to 76s and AKo, AQo. That's 14%. In the CO and BT you add the marginal AJo, ATo, A9o, A8o, A5o, KQo, KJo, QJo, J9s, Q9s, K9s, K8s. That's 20%. In SB add some more like T8s, 97s, 86s, 75s, 64s, and all remaining offsuited Aces from A7o down to A2o.
So you are suggesting we raise pre with a wider range from SB than from OTB?

Welcome back.
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Old 10-13-2017, 10:36 PM   #44
Rich Checkmaker
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Re: 2/5 AQo

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Originally Posted by Nippleman View Post
How does anyone ever call you if you are folding anything other than the preflop nuts to pressure?

I agree that checking down the road likely not great play, but fold preflop is disgustingly nitty, even oop.
villains are lol bad irl dude. very few of them are 3betting me with non-premium hands. first of all i raise a lot of hands so they think if they call and hit that they will get paid off. which is unlikely.

this is just a bad spot to call i dont like playing without the preflop initiative. fold to 3bet pre imo and move on. position.
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Old 10-14-2017, 04:06 AM   #45
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Re: 2/5 AQo

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Originally Posted by the_dude_174 View Post
So you are suggesting we raise pre with a wider range from SB than from OTB?

Welcome back.
No, I'm not suggesting to raise more in the SB. I'm saying to be willing to come in and see the flop with more marginal hands. If the CO or BT makes a steal-raise you got to 3-bet the hell out of them with at least the upper half of your universal range. About 10%-11% of the deck you got to 3-bet from the SB.

Say, the upper half would be something like: 66+, ATs+, A5s, ATo+, all suited Broadways from KQs down to JTs and T9s. You can slide in KQo too. The suited cards gives us "hits" for "equity-when-called" and the rest hit 33% one pair on the flop. Of course the pocket pair are good for Sets and ahead of any unpaired trash the CO/BT may try to steal with. The above is valid also for the BB play.

If you think you got a better play than I suggest be free and do whatever you like. All I'm suggesting is to make money from the weak players that tend to play too many hands and on the flop or turn they try to get rid of them. That's the way to make money. (raise preflop with every hand you come in and bet and bet until villain raises, after that you reevaluate on the turn not before) In 1/2, 2/5 games the big turn bets is a very precise indicator the villain has got what he's representing. There's no way around this fact. When he bets big like pot-bet on the turn or river he's got what you don't want him to have. So, you fold. You practically play a very simple strategy: Raise preflop every hand. Bet against villain's extra hands they usually tend to play and they get rid of them on the flop or on the turn. Fold to pot bets on the turn or river. If you look to make money this will work on any weak game, and let's be honest, all games are weak nowadays. As long as they call preflop and check after that, You bet!

You actually play perfect strategy. Play your hand against their sector of the range where your hand is superior. You can be even more sophisticated and play your, say, the upper 1/4 of the "universal range" against their 1/2 "upper sector of the range". You got the edge. You actually slice the playing range in section. There's no question an no doubt that you'll be getting the best of it.
If you want to do an experiment, why don't you get yourself an account at the PokerStars and play what I'm suggesting. Follow exactly the way I post it in this post and the one above. I am 100% you make money. Of course you use "play-money". They give you $12,500 every 4 hours. Play the $50/$100 with 100bb start. Be honest and analyze to see how weak players do exactly what I'm talking about. You can play there on average 160 hands per hour in the ZOOM game. Do that and come back and let us know.

Last edited by GenghisKhan; 10-14-2017 at 04:29 AM.
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Old 10-14-2017, 05:20 AM   #46
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Re: 2/5 AQo

You have been banned. So stay away.
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Old 10-14-2017, 11:44 AM   #47
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Re: 2/5 AQo

Pre sizing is good, I would go bigger if you can like $30. Definitely fold to the 3bet, or 4bet if you think they are light. AQo should be towards the bottom of our UTG range, which should be 8-14% depending on how the table is (I prefer closer to 8%, we're UTG).

Post just x/c down, can possibly hero fold river vs a jam but he probably bets smaller.
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