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Old 08-22-2015, 05:04 PM   #1
Homerphobe
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2-5, All in bluff

2-5 game with a short buy in cap of $300. Effective stacks only $220.

V just sat down at the table but has already called two flop bets then checked down a losing hand worse than top pair and folded to a second barrel in one orbit so that limited information suggested that he was pretty weak passive.

Two limpers to hero in SB who completes with 97o. V raises to 20 from BB and both limpers call. I consider V to have a fairly strong range and with the shorter stacks I consider folding but decide to call getting 4.33-1 immediate odds and closing action. (first mistake?)

Flop 56Khh. Checks around. Turn 6.

Here I decide to take a stab and bet 60 into an 80 pot with my gutshot. V should rarely have a K or AA after checking a fairly drawy flop against three opponents and almost never a 6 while both are in my range. One of the limpers could have checked a 6 though so I planned to c/f the river if one of them called.

V looks to be struggling with the decision for a while and meekly calls. I read him as genuinely weak and not attempting a reverse tell. Both limpers fold.

River is offsuit Q. Hero bets Vs last 140 into a 200 pot. I couldn't win by checking and I put V on a mid-high pocket pair and thought there was a very good chance he'd fold to pressure. The Q isn't as good of a river card as a heart or straight card to bluff but it does add another overcard to most of the range I put him, although it did fill him up if he had QQ.

I'm trying to decide if this was a total spew against a weak passive player or a good read on the situation. I'm afraid I just gave my opponent too much credit. My main strategy against typical opponents at the stakes I play is flop a hand and value bet them to death but this seemed at the time like a great opportunity to take advantage of a narrowed, weak range.
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Old 08-22-2015, 05:24 PM   #2
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Re: 2-5, All in bluff

First of all, for these stack sizes... yeah, fold pre.

River is a necessary bluff against a weak-passive. The story you're telling is that you have a 6 or a good king. He can have AK/KQ/KK/QQ here, but he can also have JJ/1010/99/AQ/AJs. If you think he'll fold those hands, you've backed yourself into a must-bet river.
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Old 08-22-2015, 06:38 PM   #3
TTBH240
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Re: 2-5, All in bluff

I know 'fold pre' isn't a very popular answer for some to hear, but it appears you knew you should have done so. With stacks this shallow, being OOP, and having an awful hand, just fold pre and save yourself the trouble of having to bet others out in order to win.
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Old 08-22-2015, 07:06 PM   #4
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Re: 2-5, All in bluff

You were drawing for a straight and missed. Just give up on the hand and throw it away when V bets on turn. But in retrospect, just fold pre flop, being oop.

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Old 08-22-2015, 07:31 PM   #5
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Re: 2-5, All in bluff

This is definitely a fold pre, having said that limping in isn't terrible to see cheap flops although I would prefer not to do that in the blinds OOP. But once the raise comes in I'm not putting 4xs BB into a bloated pot OOP with bad cards, now is for sure the time to fold, you tried to limp and got punished, now cut your losses.

As played unless you flop a small blind special, leading into four is pretty spewy. Now just shut down save money and look for easier spots.
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Old 08-22-2015, 08:13 PM   #6
OSUTexan
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Re: 2-5, All in bluff

Just fold pre given stack sizes...should see a lot of places to double up easily playing so short when you just get some decently strong hands.

As played, don't mind taking a stab on turn after it checks thru on flop...the Q on river changes nothing though so if V is calling turn... best to just give up on river.
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Old 08-22-2015, 08:52 PM   #7
Homerphobe
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Re: 2-5, All in bluff

I agree that calling pre was a slight mistake. I ran the equity giving villain top 5% and limpers top 50% and it came out at 16.7% equity so slightly less than the 4.33-1 I was getting but not by much, but if it was suited I think it's a mandatory call. Also, position doesn't matter as much in a 4-way pot and I had absolute position on the preflop raiser as I would have acted last of the oppenents after he bet. Again, poor play but not awful.

I do think it's a must shove on the river after betting the turn though. If I check and my opponent shows 99-JJ, AJhh or AQhh, which was a huge percentage of the range I put him, on I'd have thrown up.

What I'm really wondering is whether I should even be trying to make plays like this at all since typical opponents at these stakes are so terrible. Whenever I give my opponents credit I end up narrowing their range too much. Believing an opponent can't have X because no rational player would check/bet/call in that spot assumes I'm playing a rational player and that's my biggest error.

Last edited by Homerphobe; 08-22-2015 at 09:16 PM.
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Old 08-22-2015, 09:40 PM   #8
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Re: 2-5, All in bluff

I think if you were suited you are right to call also. I like the play, but these stakes are not profitable to make such plays at, the players cant grasp the concept, and will undoubtely call with much worse than what is deemed "acceptable" or "in their range" . But, Perhaps i am being cruel for my misjudgement in the past and in fact, its not the stakes, or the players, but more importantly the stack sizes.. that kind of play would be better utilized in a deeper game. All that being said, its a fold pre, lol. As played, its all in all the way. No heart, no chance.

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Old 08-22-2015, 10:52 PM   #9
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Re: 2-5, All in bluff

Fold pre.

When someone gives you a genuine green light like this, bombs away.

He probably has an underpair.

Sometimes he's faking and sometimes he calls anyway. Sometimes the feel bluff will succeed and sometimes it will fail. The only way to get better at this is to do it.
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Old 08-24-2015, 12:43 AM   #10
Homerphobe
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Re: 2-5, All in bluff

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Originally Posted by Rhotang View Post
I think if you were suited you are right to call also. I like the play, but these stakes are not profitable to make such plays at, the players cant grasp the concept, and will undoubtely call with much worse than what is deemed "acceptable" or "in their range" . But, Perhaps i am being cruel for my misjudgement in the past and in fact, its not the stakes, or the players, but more importantly the stack sizes.. that kind of play would be better utilized in a deeper game. All that being said, its a fold pre, lol. As played, its all in all the way. No heart, no chance.

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Your summation of the players at these stakes pretty much mirrors mine. I like my read on the situation here, I just think I shouldn't make bluffs against opponents that, as you say, won't grasp the concept. As it turns out, my opponent had QQ and filled up. Pretty sure he would have folded to ANY other river card. My reason for posting is trying to decide whether I should push situations like this in the future at these stakes or just wait for big hands and value bet.
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Old 08-24-2015, 04:28 AM   #11
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Re: 2-5, All in bluff

Why do you think he has medium PPs in his range when you bet the turn into 3 opponents and he had 2 others left to act behind him? His range is slowplayed monsters, Kx, 6x and flush draws but not medium PPs imo. He's not folding any of those except the flush draw on the river. So river bluff looks spewy.

Edit: Wow, just read the results and it's amazing how he calls with QQ on the turn. Rhotang nailed it, you just never know the different things a bad player can do, things which you would never consider even a possibility. He must have "put you on a draw", lol.

Last edited by 6betfold; 08-24-2015 at 04:33 AM.
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Old 08-24-2015, 07:27 PM   #12
Homerphobe
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Re: 2-5, All in bluff

A big part of my read was the physical tell. He had a genuine look of concern on the turn that screamed weakness. He also called large bets with a weak hand then tried to check them down twice in 10 hands. That's a small sample but it's still data.

I really don't agree with your range at all though. KK was a possibility but I pretty much discounted that after the physical tell. A passive player wouldn't raise a weak K or a combo with a 6 when they could have seen a free flop and he would very likely have bet AK or KQ on the flop with 3 opponents, a drawy board, and these stack sizes.

I think I just ran into one of two river cards that wrecked my plan. Philosophically speaking though, I shouldn't be trying to run big bluffs on weak passive players where I can just as easily fold preflop then wait to flop top pair and value bet.
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Old 08-24-2015, 08:16 PM   #13
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Re: 2-5, All in bluff

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Originally Posted by Homerphobe View Post
I really don't agree with your range at all though. KK was a possibility but I pretty much discounted that after the physical tell. A passive player wouldn't raise a weak K or a combo with a 6 when they could have seen a free flop and he would very likely have bet AK or KQ on the flop with 3 opponents, a drawy board, and these stack sizes.
You're right. Only KK makes sense. But you'd expect him to bet flop with the two flush/sd on board. So we're only left with something bizarre like QQ-TT now. Just an unlucky river.
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Old 08-24-2015, 08:20 PM   #14
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Re: 2-5, All in bluff

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Originally Posted by Homerphobe View Post
I agree that calling pre was a slight mistake. I ran the equity giving villain top 5% and limpers top 50% and it came out at 16.7% equity so slightly less than the 4.33-1 I was getting but not by much, but if it was suited I think it's a mandatory call. Also, position doesn't matter as much in a 4-way pot and I had absolute position on the preflop raiser as I would have acted last of the oppenents after he bet. Again, poor play but not awful.

I do think it's a must shove on the river after betting the turn though. If I check and my opponent shows 99-JJ, AJhh or AQhh, which was a huge percentage of the range I put him, on I'd have thrown up.

What I'm really wondering is whether I should even be trying to make plays like this at all since typical opponents at these stakes are so terrible. Whenever I give my opponents credit I end up narrowing their range too much. Believing an opponent can't have X because no rational player would check/bet/call in that spot assumes I'm playing a rational player and that's my biggest error.
The preflop call is really bad. Your hand is completely unplayable and you're in the worst position, so you have little hope of recognizing all of your 16% equity (and the call is bad even if you can).
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Old 08-24-2015, 08:35 PM   #15
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Re: 2-5, All in bluff

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I agree that calling pre was a slight mistake.
No. Calling pre was a huge mistake. That $1 lead you down a path where your best option what to put your whole stack in on the river with a 9 high bluff. A lot of players have the same leak. Until you are able to recognize that not all equity is equal, you're better off just folding everything but monsters in the SB.
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Old 08-24-2015, 08:49 PM   #16
Rhotang
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Re: 2-5, All in bluff

Leave it to a lady to muck up a mans plans. Curse them. 2 outers suck. At least you still have your balls. Carry on.

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Old 08-24-2015, 09:27 PM   #17
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Re: 2-5, All in bluff

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First of all, for these stack sizes... yeah, fold pre.

River is a necessary bluff against a weak-passive. The story you're telling is that you have a 6 or a good king. He can have AK/KQ/KK/QQ here, but he can also have JJ/1010/99/AQ/AJs. If you think he'll fold those hands, you've backed yourself into a must-bet river.

Weak-passive as described does not have a range this wide. AK c-bets. KQ c-bets, and sometimes does not raise pre. KK should c-bet this board, but might think a check to trap is in order. 99, AJs, sometimes AQ don't raise pre. JJ raises more pre, as this type V is usually scared to play it OOP post-flop and raises to $30-35 to try to end it immediately. QQ should c-bet this from, 'tho we now know he didn't -- which confirms his passivity, which confirms his range is narrower.

Also, a lot of low stakes weak-passives, once they call the turn, they "feel" like this commits them to call the river as well. In their minds, it's "well, I didn't believe he had me beat OTT, so I can't change my mind now."
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Old 08-24-2015, 10:25 PM   #18
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Re: 2-5, All in bluff

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QQ should c-bet this
Why should QQ c-bet this?
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Old 08-24-2015, 10:39 PM   #19
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Re: 2-5, All in bluff

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Why should QQ c-bet this?

To get value from 77-JJ, flush draws, straight draws. And get rid of FPS idiots with 97o.
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Old 08-24-2015, 10:41 PM   #20
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Re: 2-5, All in bluff

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Why should QQ c-bet this?

Not saying weak-passive WOULD c-bet QQ, just that he should...
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Old 08-24-2015, 10:56 PM   #21
Captain Freedom
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Re: 2-5, All in bluff

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A big part of my read was the physical tell. He had a genuine look of concern on the turn that screamed weakness. He also called large bets with a weak hand then tried to check them down twice in 10 hands. That's a small sample but it's still data.

I really don't agree with your range at all though. KK was a possibility but I pretty much discounted that after the physical tell. A passive player wouldn't raise a weak K or a combo with a 6 when they could have seen a free flop and he would very likely have bet AK or KQ on the flop with 3 opponents, a drawy board, and these stack sizes.

I think I just ran into one of two river cards that wrecked my plan. Philosophically speaking though, I shouldn't be trying to run big bluffs on weak passive players where I can just as easily fold preflop then wait to flop top pair and value bet.
I like this thought process & your awareness of the situation & the overall dynamics of play at this level.

I play slightly loose, particularly when I have good reads on predictable post flop opponents.

While I do prefer a little more room to maneuver post flop than what you faced, I'm ok with ur play given the situation. When it doesn't run my way, I just chalk it up as advertisement for future calls when I have it. I'm still getting away with my share of steals that make up for "misses" like this AND I almost always get paid off by my regular opponents if they have any decent hands when I do have it.

Good luck.

Guard against being results oriented. You are on right track IMO.
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Old 08-25-2015, 03:26 AM   #22
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Re: 2-5, All in bluff

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Not saying weak-passive WOULD c-bet QQ, just that he should...
I know. I'm asking why are you cbetting into multiple opponents with QQ on a K high 2 flush board?
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Old 08-25-2015, 04:49 AM   #23
Rod the Bod
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Re: 2-5, All in bluff

I like the way you played this, though I may have only bet 45-55 OTT. River shove has to work less than 50% of the time to be profitable, and I think it does work about half the time. Sucks that you got 2-outed.
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Old 08-25-2015, 07:27 AM   #24
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Re: 2-5, All in bluff

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I know. I'm asking why are you cbetting into multiple opponents with QQ on a K high 2 flush board?
The flush draw makes it more of a cbet spot and less of a WA/WB spot than a dryer board. Haven't you ever bet an underpair for two streets then checked the river when the draws bricked and taken it down? It's easier IP but it's one of our bread and butter moves. Better that it's a K high flop than an A high one, too.
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Old 08-25-2015, 08:47 PM   #25
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Re: 2-5, All in bluff

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The flush draw makes it more of a cbet spot and less of a WA/WB spot than a dryer board. Haven't you ever bet an underpair for two streets then checked the river when the draws bricked and taken it down? It's easier IP but it's one of our bread and butter moves. Better that it's a K high flop than an A high one, too.
So you're always betting underpairs on FD boards on flop and turn IP and checking behind river hoping they bricked their draw and don't have TP instead?
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