Hero ($1.5k bb) should be viewed as solid and winning. Ran good earlier but haven't played many hands over the past hour or so.

V1 ($800) recreational older Mexican guy major pothead. He's a reg but not very good. Has some propensity to gamble. Just won a big hand by 3b a btn open from the sb and double barrel. No ideas what he had.

V2 ($500 UTG) average rec. seems to be a station and too loose imo

V2 opens to $20
V1 3b to $60
H 4b to $220

V1 gives the (imo genuine) uncomfortable reaction and makes the call.

Flop ($460)
3s3h9c

Hero?
Bet flop? Sizing? Jam all club/AK turns? Jam any turn?
Villain should have roughly $580 behind.

Anyone like flatting the 3b with AKs and 4b AKo?

Also sizing for preflop? I don't really like my sizing

Thanks


Edit: I should add that when I 4b this but I don't expect villain to continue with hands like AQs/KQs. He's not that bad/loose

Preflop seems perfect imo. You're OOP so sizing higher than pot is good.

As played, I think my standard line would be to check/raise all in. The remaining stack size is a little awkward (580 behind into a $460 pot). I don't mind just shoving either.

Don't 3b pre without a range estimate for V and a plan for the hand.

What do you think rec older Mexican pothead is 3b with? What's your plan if you hit an A or K? What's your plan if you don't?

Most LLSNL v's have a very tight 3b range. Sometimes it's only KK+ and AK. I'll leave figuring out the right preflop play in that case as an exercise for the reader.

Even if you think he'll 3b wider than that, you're going to be OOP. If he does have something like a big PP, will he stack off if you hit (since the overcard won't be hard to see)?

If he flops an overpair, can you move him off he hand? If he'll stack off with an overpair, but fold if there's an overcard, you don't have a lot to work with. He'll correctly fold if you're ahead and you won't be able to move him off the hand if he's ahead. Medium pot when you win + large pot when you lose + only about 1/3 to win = no bueno.

You should at least evaluate shoving. You'd be risking 800 to win 80, about 9:8 but you have two V's to get through, one of whom has indicated a very strong range. Not likely to be a good move.

You can flat and play with from 140 to 180 in the pot and 500 to 800 behind against one or two players. Doesn't sound like a wonderful spot.

Against a complete unknown, I'd seriously consider folding. We have a position disadvantage, very possibly a hand strength disadvantage, and no information advantage. That's not a lot of advantages to use to win money.

If I thought V was gambly pre, but more fit/fold post (which is not uncommon for LLSNL V's), I could get behind a 4b, planning to barrel decent flop situations or maybe even make a hand and get paid once in a while.

AP, this flop is hard to hit and you have indicated a very, very strong range (often only KK+ at these limits). I'd throw out 300 on the flop. It continues the story we told pre, and is a big (and therefore scary) bet. It also makes it pretty clear that the rest is going in on the turn, so we have some leverage. On the bright side, since it's only about 2/3 pot, if he folds 40% of the time or more it's at least breakeven.

If V calls, I probably give up on the turn unless we bink. He's not folding for the last 280 and we're not likely ahead.

Don't like the x/r idea. No reason to think V is going to bet a weak hand for us. If he does bet, our raise is going to offer great odds for him to call. Would he really expect us to check something like KK or AA here?

Why wouldn't you check KK/AA here? What are you afraid of?

I wouldn't typically check KK or AA here for a couple of reasons.

I expect V's to mostly think I've got KK or AA when I 4b. I don't expect checking the flop to change their opinion much, so I don't expect to induce a bluff OTF or a call OTT from hands that would have folded to a bet.

Much of the time, V will have a few outs to beat our hand. If checking convinces them to make a bad call on the turn, it might be worthwhile. But if they're not going to call unless they bink, checking just gives away free EV, even more so if there's some money back for implied odds.

I'd like to be able to 4b wider than KK+ and then move them off their hand post. Having shown a strong hand played strongly can help with that.

Put another way, I expect checking to give away more EV to hands in V's folding range (that bink to win) than I gain from the hands that I move out of their folding range but still beat. Giving away more than I gain loses EV overall.

Fair enough. Our ranges/image our probably just a bit different to make our best decisions otf different.

Perfect play.
Now, bet in such a way as to make sure the Mexican with 800 start stack understands that he's got no folding equity against you and if he calls the flop he's got to commit for stacks. He's got about 560-580 left and the pot is 460 - Bet 500. A check-raise shove will be OK but if villain checks behind you gonna have the same situation on the turn. If the dude has an overpair except AA he will very hard pressed to commit all 800 on a pair. (of course I'm talking about good sane thinking player. If he's a fish or a drug dealer and a compulsive gambler - he may call you with bottom pair) I don't know who this guy is. I will have to be there and spend some time playing in that environment.

I am almost sure he doesn't have two-pair or a set. The only single set he can have is 99 pre and only overpair could be the QQ. You got to know his way of thinking and his way of value hands. How he perceives over-pairs? Are those suckers good enough for him to play for stacks? You must know all this. If he's got AK he will definitely fold when faced with commitment.

What hands are uncomfortable to call 25% of effective preflop 4! .., wtf? - If he is a regular but not good enough he may be a donkey, he may have right now AK and plays like a drawing hand. Because AA/KK and QQ most good players will shove and not go for set value.
Base on what you said above I think you can win this right now on the flop and blow away all pairs and all Ace-Kings. You still have your 6 outs two overs.

Very possibly. And I could very well be wrong. (Something for me to think about; appreciation!)

Also, game conditions. I'm starting to think of poker venues as being a little like different vintages of wine. "Bluffy, but with hints of spazz and and a lingering aftertaste of suckouts" or "Somewhat dry and tight at first, but develops a rich, tilty bouquet when allowed to ripen"

Oh.., man .. you are a poet. Very nice analogy. You got talent. I mean it.

Pre is very bad

Easy c/f as played

As played just shove. Its akward but we might as well maximize our f/e. There are no practical sizes to bet/fold and I'm not checking given description of villain and read that he is not that strong. On a good day villain open folds ak to the shove and would have got it in vs any other line.

I'm sure that most people will hate the cold 4 bet with AK, but I like it. Now shove. It's only a slight over-bet, and it should generate a ton of fold equity.

Can JJ/TT can a shove on this flop? Me thinks not. He needs QQ+ to call, IMO.

Cold 4bet is good as reads tells us his 3bet range isn't nutted

Flop $140 or so, jamming most turns (especially ones we pick up equity on)

Do not shove otf, it's so bad and is costing you so many big blinds

thanks for the responses all.

i do think Villain 3b something like JJ+/AK for sure. maybe TT, maybe AQ. that being said, I wonder if x/jam > open jam on flop if we want the highest % chance of him folding TT/JJ.

also, once we 4b, are we committed to the pot?

Do we really think villain 3bet an UTG open and called a huge 4bet to fold an overpair on 933r?

Come on.

I'm not saying I'm trying to make money by making villains fold hands like JJ.

Which is why I'm wondering if there is merit to just giving up once he calls the 4bet and flop comes out like this.

but I'm really not sure if villain is calling off JJ to a shove or x/jam

I'm still not sure what our plan was with the 4bet

which is why i posted this thread and one of the questions in my OP was what to do preflop.

Put me in the flat the 3 bet with AK suited camp.

Main reason is that i find it a natural adjustment to live villains nutted 3 bet ranges, to flat more with hands like AK. It makes little sense to me to narrow down villains continuerange even further with a large 4 bet, and by that taking on some huge reverse implied odds that is a classic with AK.

Also i like to flat AA and KK some portion of the time to 3 bets FWIW due to exploitative reasons, especially when i have position on 3 bettor.

I guess you 3! from SB or BB. If the info is there I'm not seeing it.

I think options on flop are push or give up. Probably just give up depending on what PP you think he'll fold. I don't see how a x/r can work here on any PP with so little money left. I guess if he has AK he could fold to x/r but he'd probably just shove that himself, wouldn't he?

i dont think villain would shove AK if i checked to him... i think most avg regs would not shove in over 100bb even if SPR is low in a 4b pot wihtout at least the NFD or something on the flop.

and spider sorry its not very clear but i wrote bb in hero's description. but yeah i 4b (not 3b) from bb.


@petrucci do you also just flat AKo?

If i suspect the 3 bettor have a "normal" tight nutted 3 bet range yes i can flat AK off also.

Sure, if its a straddled pot with more dead money or several callers in between, you suspect its a wider squeeze 3 bet range youre up against- then i am all on board with the 4 bet.

But i see so many players bleeding money when they are getting in 150-200 BB pre with AK these days. In many lineups youre just torching off money by trying to do that, and you quite often isolate yourself against the most nutted parts of villains 3 bet range by 4 betting big=ending up stacking off against KK/AA.

Pre-flop overall seems spewy. The first raise is from an "average rec station" described as loose but that generally applies more to limping than opening, doesn't it.

Assuming the first raise from UTG represents a tight range (like TT+/AK/AQs?) and other villain is somewhat aware of this then AK really isn't that awesome to begin with. Seems best to just flat call and then hit an A or K on flop. But in a lot of low limit gains AK following an UTG raise + 3! really doesn't have all that much value.

If "loose" instead includes a possible loose raise from UTG and a similarly loose 3! from other villain then AK looks better but the size of your 4! really leaves you in an awkward spot post flop. Still, it's a valuable hand here so I think either flat or shove. Shoving seems fine here if you think the first two raises are loose enough that AA/KK are pretty unlikely.

i should've been more specific in my reads but the UTG i think opens too many hands, and i believe him to be too much of a station post flop.

I think main villain here 3b hands like JJ/AK and not just nutted KK+ hands.

@spider im assuming you are at least calling the 3b and not just folding?

@petrucci assuming you flat here do you just x/f flop? with AKo, same hand/flop, woudl you also just x/f flop?