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Old 07-18-2018, 09:44 PM   #1
fi$h
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2/5 AKo backs into trouble on turn and river?

2/5 Game Heros stack is 1900$

V1 is in BB with about 1500$
V2 is in MP with about 500$
Hero is in HJ

V1 is a person hero has no played with before but is a local. Hero has seen him donk bet quite a few pots, but hasnt seen too many showdowns to really get a grasp of his ranges. Does seem to call quite a bit and if he donks he will continue with the agression.

V2 is a good thinking player.

Action opens with V2 raising to 25$

I look at AhKc I 3bet to 80$
folds to V1 in BB who calls, back to V2 who calls.

Flop come Qc6s4d pot is 240$
checks to Hero who bets 75$
Both V1 and V2 call.

Turn comes Ks pot is 465$
checks back to me, I pick up a great card, I bet 100$ (bet sizing?)
V1 check raises to 250$
V2 folds and I make the call.

River is Kh pot is 965$

V1 bets 500$

Hero???
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Old 07-18-2018, 09:57 PM   #2
Minatorr
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Re: 2/5 AKo backs into trouble on turn and river?

Why does everyone cbet AK 3way in 3b pots? AK here is literally trash. Give up otf.

Check ott.

Ap call turn in a vacuum is prob bad, but im not folding river once we get here vs 1/2 pot bet. Cant imagine it’s too +EV though
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Old 07-18-2018, 09:58 PM   #3
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Re: 2/5 AKo backs into trouble on turn and river?

Villain will rarely do this with KJ or KT, and even so it is likely to be the suited variant. To continue on the flop with any Kx, it probably has a backdoor flush so only 2 combos available. After turn drops, there is only 1 combo.

Villain has a lot more sets and boats here than hero. There aren't that many bluffs in villain's range except for a few 75s hands, but these are dicey calls OOP pre.

I think it's not really fun to do this but you have to fold this. In this case you lost less chips, but if you are going to bet turn, size bigger, at least around 200. You should also consider checking back flop for pot control or going for a delayed cbet when checked to on the turn. The board does not significantly benefit hero's range more than the villain's range. Getting two players to fold with this small bet is also quite difficult.
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Old 07-19-2018, 12:15 AM   #4
HomelessPizza
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Re: 2/5 AKo backs into trouble on turn and river?

Think its a good spot to check back OTF and take a free card. Yes the board is super dry and ripe for a cbet bluff, but we can have many hands with less showdown value and equity to cbet.

AP, I think calling or folding turn is fine, but that river sizing is nutted and I probably let it go. Is this V really running this bluff with hands like JsTs or As4s? AsQs is just flatting turn....and you expect a tight cold calling range from the blinds
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Old 07-19-2018, 12:43 AM   #5
Minatorr
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Re: 2/5 AKo backs into trouble on turn and river?

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Originally Posted by HomelessPizza View Post
Think its a good spot to check back OTF and take a free card. Yes the board is super dry and ripe for a cbet bluff, but we can have many hands with less showdown value and equity to cbet.

AP, I think calling or folding turn is fine, but that river sizing is nutted and I probably let it go. Is this V really running this bluff with hands like JsTs or As4s? AsQs is just flatting turn....and you expect a tight cold calling range from the blinds
The frequency of him spazzing goes way up when we bet lol 21% pot ott
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Old 07-19-2018, 01:07 AM   #6
AllTheCheese
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Re: 2/5 AKo backs into trouble on turn and river?

Checking back this flop seems bad to me. We're not really 3bing that wide in these positions and most other hands in our range want to bet small for value (and a little equity denial with JJ). I prefer betting small with most of my range on this flop, even three way. When you bet $75 to win $240, it's not like you have to fold them very often to profit, or even really at all if betting $75 induces a caller to check the turn, thus buying you the river.
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Old 07-19-2018, 02:15 AM   #7
Tomark
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Re: 2/5 AKo backs into trouble on turn and river?

I actually wouldve checked back the turn. Flop was bone dry and you got two callers. 66/44/KQ are out there, and 75/53/Qx are a lot rarer in the 3 bet pot, no FDs. Once you get check raised its a snap fold, but the obvious move is checkback turn and call 1 river bet.

Not sure a K did anything for you OTR, what did you catch up to? Q6? 64? AA? If an A had peeled on the river I guess you could call to beat KQ...but really you just have no business being on the river in the first place.

Betting flop is ok but... Q high isnt great as a 3 better, AK/JJ are unhappy, QQ probably slowplays, your bluffing hands whiffed pretty much no mattee what you bluff with, so youre only value betting with AA/KK, so you should be cbetting with weaker air and checking back the overcards.

Also heres a fun one to consider: what does V1’s donk bets mean about his check calling range? Donking is usually a draw or a weak made hand. He presumably check/folds his air, and you can remove at least some of his draws and weak made hands from his checking range so his c/c range should be incredibly strong since he donks his weak made hands, so it would disproportionately be hands like sets. (Notably though, his donking leaves him especially vulnerable to cbets, so cbetting the flop isnt bad here as an exploitative play)

Last edited by Tomark; 07-19-2018 at 02:22 AM.
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Old 07-19-2018, 08:32 AM   #8
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Re: 2/5 AKo backs into trouble on turn and river?

While the board is great to continue, I’d lean toward checking 3-way misses unless there are specific live reads.

If we are going to cbet, sizing should be in the black chip range to max FE vs. TT-77. Maybe $105ish. This also balances our JJ+ hands.

AP, probably making a crying call. Sizing on flop/turn makes this a difficult decision, imho.
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Old 07-19-2018, 10:16 AM   #9
fi$h
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Re: 2/5 AKo backs into trouble on turn and river?

Thanks for in formative replies

Spoiler:
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Old 07-19-2018, 10:53 AM   #10
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Re: 2/5 AKo backs into trouble on turn and river?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AllTheCheese View Post
Checking back this flop seems bad to me. We're not really 3bing that wide in these positions and most other hands in our range want to bet small for value (and a little equity denial with JJ). I prefer betting small with most of my range on this flop, even three way. When you bet $75 to win $240, it's not like you have to fold them very often to profit, or even really at all if betting $75 induces a caller to check the turn, thus buying you the river.
+1.

I prefer a b/f on the turn to a check and then have to face a big decision on all rivers. V's don't cr bluff like ever at this level, so you can safely b/f (but maybe a big higher than $100 as that looks like you have air. I think I would go $220ish and fold to a CR.
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Old 07-19-2018, 10:56 AM   #11
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Re: 2/5 AKo backs into trouble on turn and river?

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Originally Posted by fi$h View Post
Thanks for in formative replies

Spoiler:
Completely disagree with the bolded. I think your SIZING on the turn got V to spazz here as it screamed "1 pair". If you bet a more standard amount on the turn, V would likely have just folded there and not tried his multi-street bluff. So even though you won more due to how you played it, a lot of times you will be shown 44 or 66 here with his line.
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Old 07-19-2018, 11:19 AM   #12
fi$h
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Re: 2/5 AKo backs into trouble on turn and river?

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Originally Posted by shorn7 View Post
Completely disagree with the bolded. I think your SIZING on the turn got V to spazz here as it screamed "1 pair". If you bet a more standard amount on the turn, V would likely have just folded there and not tried his multi-street bluff. So even though you won more due to how you played it, a lot of times you will be shown 44 or 66 here with his line.
OPPPs! I made and error. Villain had 44 not 33 for a boat. I'll edit that now.

*well I can't update it since time has passed but for the record villain did have a full house beating me.*
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Old 07-19-2018, 11:22 AM   #13
shorn7
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Re: 2/5 AKo backs into trouble on turn and river?

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Originally Posted by fi$h View Post
OPPPs! I made and error. Villain had 44 not 33 for a boat. I'll edit that now.

*well I can't update it since time has passed but for the record villain did have a full house beating me.*
Oh haha. Well there you go. So even more reason to b/f the turn IMO, as again the CR bluffing frequency of V's at this level on the turn (and river for that matter) is very close to 0%, so when that happens on the turn you can safely fold.
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