Im still workint a bit on my oop calling vs 4betting ranges in certain situations. Heres a tough spot that came up:


Hero tag solid player with $640
Villian tag solid player covers
V rarely 3bet bluffs, mostly plays a solid abc game. Mostly becayse the game is full of fish.
We both know each other's game VERY well. In fact we discuss poker strategy often. We are both the tightest players at a table full of fish, and the players who win the most. For the most part we never tangle with each other, weve maybe gotten into 3bet bluffing scenarios against each other a few times in the past. But both of us are perfectly capable.

1 limps to hero
Hero is in Hj and raises AKo to $20
Folds to villian otb who 3bets to $60
Blinds fold.

Okay, so its hj vs btn dynamic, His 3bet range against me should look like AA, KK, QQ, AK, sometimes JJ, sometimes Aq, and rarely a bluff. If i 4bet his continuing range is AA, KK, QQ, AK always. He is capable of flatting a 4bet with his continuing range here, even with AA. Hes done it to me before. I think he would 5 bet bluff shove less than 5% if that.

So weve got some options:
Fold... Too weak i think
Call... Calling ako oop is tough to play, but at least keeps his range wide.
4bet to $140... The problem here however is if we 4bet, stack sizes are such that we are pretty much right on the borderline to be commited to calling a 5bet shove. Plus 4betting wont necessarily define his range, as hes capable of flatting AA there, and he will never call my 4bet speculatively.
Since it would be $500 more to win $640+$140= $780
So 500/(500+780)
We need to be good 39%, which is means were pretty much neutral ev to maybe slightly losing long run when he jams on us and we call.

If we were deeper its an ez 4bet fold, if we were shorter its an ez 4bet gii. Were on the borderline here.
So fold, call, raise?

I'm folding against this range consider you can't beat any of it AND you're out of position.

As you describe, all 4-betting is going to do is get him to fold JJ.

You know you're behind is entire range unless he decided to get frisky with AQ this time, so unless you have reason to believe he would fold KK here, raising does no good.

Flat calling is bad too because what are you hoping to come on the flop? Hope it's A-high and he has KK or QQ? And you're out of position, so 2/3rds of the time when you miss, you're probably going to fold anyway.

If the villain is as tight as you say he is, I'd wait for a better spot.

If your range is accurate then I would fold. 4-betting would be worse than calling IMO.

If you guys are the 2 best at a table full of bad fish why would he be going after you? I think this is a strong hand more often than not and I would just fold. May be nitty but I think it's the right play.

Trust your reads and fold. Give this guy a ego boost or whatever he's looking for (Probably just a QQ+) and go back to what's the most +EV move for you... Goin Fishin.

Clear fold pre and its not even close based on reads.

V shows up with AA KK QQ AK the great majority of the time according to you, and you believe folding is too weak?

You might want to double check your poker logic as this will spill across your entire game.

+1

OP even write: "Villain rarely 3 bet bluffs, mostly playing a solid abc game".

Its not at all weak to fold here, its the opposite- a very solid good play in my mind.

Weve got 45% equity against
AA KK QQ AK and half combos of AQ and half combos of JJ. It gets closer to a flip if we include a few bluff combos, say 2 combos of A5s. Id like to rephrase i think folding is certainly an option, but is it the best play here? Maybe it is. Just wanted to hear some discussion about this spot

You're in a classic RIO situation oop. You're putting too much emphasis on equity and too little on what you can extract with that equity. If you call and the flop has an ace, he's not paying you off if he doesn't have an ace. If he has AA, you're losing your stack. If the flop has a king, you don't get paid off by worse and stack off against better. If you miss, you have to fold to a bet.

It is a fold.

You're worrying too much about being exploited and being 'too weak.' You're not going to be exploited unless you do stuff like flash your cards to the table to what big lay downs you're making.

This is one if the times ak is actually somewhat rio because how often will be pay you off with worse while your out of position?

Fold or 4 b , with folding seeming like the best option given the described villain And range constructed

This is why math is idiotic. If we call, we still lose to AQ a large percentage of the time that we do not flop an Ace or King since the villain has position and is the aggressor.

That is actually the main reason i made this thread, i consider villian to be a very good player, so i dont want to be exploited and just fold AK to a 3bet.

But i guess until he starts 3betting me more, (which actually does happen if the table gets short, or the calling stations leave) i should fold Ak

Remember villain doesn't know you're folding AK. For all he knows you're folding JT/66/sc's or whatever. So don't worry about being exploited here.