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Old 12-03-2011, 11:06 AM   #1
Tom Dwans Son
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2/5 AK UTG

Hero - Substantial online experience. Fairly new young regular at casino. Generally plays solid but mixes up play a lot with open limps from UTG with a wide range of hands including aces and kings. New to table. Stack: $550

Villain 1 - 35-40 yr old reg donator at 2/5 and 5/10. No history but this player has been the most active player in 2 orbits (playing most pots). Player has $2,000 in front of him and that has clearly given him confidence

Villain 2 - 25 yr old TAG. Online player. Lots of history. Short stacked ($65).

Hero limps UTG with AKo.
A couple other limpers then Villain 1 raises to $35 from cutoff.
Villain 2 raises all in for $65 from cutoff.
Folds around to Hero.
Hero raises to $125.
Folds to Villain 1.
Villain 1 Calls.
Flop comes 10-9-2 Rainbow.
Hero _______ ?
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Old 12-03-2011, 11:36 AM   #2
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Re: 2/5 AK UTG

Your reraise seems small to me. I would make it $225, then shove any flop. The added fold equity from V1 is noteable and even if he calls, you have commited yourself to shoving any flop and therefore negated your positional disadvantage.

As played, there is $320 in the pot, of which $120 is the side pot. If you continue, you are commiting yourself. Sucks that you already put almost a 1/4 of your stack in preflop, but you are not commited yet, the flop sucks, and you are out of position. Another gross spot. I literally have no idea what to do here. When that is the case, I just check. And likely check/fold depending on V1's flop bet size. I'm interested to hear what others have to say though.
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Old 12-03-2011, 11:42 AM   #3
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Re: 2/5 AK UTG

Yes, I felt after I made the preflop bet that I didn't put enough in. $225 seems a bit on the excessive side though. Can anyone illustrate why $225 (or any other amount) would be the proper preflop raise size in this instance? BTW, I was trying to rep Aces/Kings preflop.
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Old 12-03-2011, 11:46 AM   #4
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Re: 2/5 AK UTG

The pot 315 and you have 450 behind....thats a really bad spot for ak....(add to that its a protected pot).....any bet commits you...so its now shove or check fold...and shoving means you risk 450 to possibly only wint 120 (side pot)....I think it's a check fold....

However, I would shove here pre flop and aviod getting into a spot with ak with spr between 1to 1 and 2to1.....when you miss that's a really tough spot to play ak....
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Old 12-03-2011, 11:57 AM   #5
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Re: 2/5 AK UTG

^ I don't agree at all with shoving pre. I can't imagine ever doing that with aces and it really narrows my range (like I have a hand i'm scared to play out of position with). Also, I no longer have any fold equity if villain 5 bets. If Villain 5-bets, Villain can only have KK or AA.
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Old 12-03-2011, 12:46 PM   #6
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Re: 2/5 AK UTG

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Originally Posted by Tom Dwans Son View Post
^ I don't agree at all with shoving pre. I can't imagine ever doing that with aces and it really narrows my range (like I have a hand i'm scared to play out of position with). Also, I no longer have any fold equity if villain 5 bets. If Villain 5-bets, Villain can only have KK or AA.

I don't play 5-2 but a 1-2 you can get very odd calls to shoves...and given stack sizes I may shove AA here.....A limp shove here often looks like 88 to a lot of players...I have seen calls hear with hands like AQ...

Doing what you did gives a really bad stack to post ratio...as I said and I try to avoid them....(multi way with an all in, I really do not have an idea of my target SPR )...but my default with AK is to avoid that 1 to 1 to 2 to 1 area like the plague...

you could raise to 200 get the spr less then 1 to 1 and shove any flop...but I don't like putting 40% of my stack in planning to fold to a pre flop shove (I guess it might be right)... it is a total disaster if he happens to shove AK or QQ here, and you fold...And my guess is a lot of players call you with AA here anyway,why would he shove.

If he shoves with KK now (if you raise like 200 bet)...your eqiuty in the pot is 320 and a fold is a mistake..

My guess is mathematically if you fold out smaller pairs (QQ, JJ, TT , 99) and some hands that have equity against you (JTs type) with a shove but pay off AA KK by shoving, with your blockers you are probably doing bettor overall.... it gets worse if he going to call with pairs, call any flop with out an A or a K and fold out when one comes...


stack sizes are going to make this a tough play no matter what you do and shoving I think is best...
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Old 12-03-2011, 01:33 PM   #7
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Re: 2/5 AK UTG

Another line might be to just call.....

If you then get called you have a 195 ish pot with 485 behind....you have wiggle room to get away if you miss, and an easy commit if you hit....(though I still think shoving is bettor)
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Old 12-03-2011, 01:49 PM   #8
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Re: 2/5 AK UTG

AK can be a RIO hands when villains ranges are constricted to mostly pairs and AK/maybe AQ. I think a jam is good pre, if you don't like what it does to your range/you get called too often by pairs, then maybe you should be jamming AA there as well? Also, if villains both have a lot of pairs in their range, you want to be called light by smaller pairs.
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Old 12-03-2011, 04:06 PM   #9
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Re: 2/5 AK UTG

Don't limp AK utg. Don't try to "rep AA or KK" at these stakes, no one has a clue what you're trying to do. Your 4bet size is terrible precisely it puts you in the spot you're in now. If you don't plan to raise enough to make it less than a psb to shove on any flop, it's probably better to just flat pre.
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Old 12-03-2011, 05:20 PM   #10
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Re: 2/5 AK UTG

Check. That board hits his range hard and its a partially protected pot. If you go to showdown you beat all his overs. No need to bluff here, no worse hand is calling no better folding IMO.
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Old 12-04-2011, 02:23 AM   #11
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Re: 2/5 AK UTG

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Originally Posted by Yossarian147 View Post
Don't limp AK utg. Don't try to "rep AA or KK" at these stakes, no one has a clue what you're trying to do. Your 4bet size is terrible precisely it puts you in the spot you're in now. If you don't plan to raise enough to make it less than a psb to shove on any flop, it's probably better to just flat pre.
Thanks. I had never limped AK UTG b4, and was trying something different. I ended up putting a value bet of $150 on the flop and villain folded. Other Villain who was all in had a weaker Ace (either AQ or AT) and my AK held up there.
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Old 01-21-2013, 03:23 AM   #12
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Re: 2/5 AK UTG

3bet to 180-200 pre and jam most flops. As played I'd probably check fold, I expect villain to call often
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Old 01-21-2013, 03:37 AM   #13
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Re: 2/5 AK UTG

If you just raised with AK in the first place you wouldn't be in this spot. Also your raise size is complete crap. Furthermore, your reads on the players is really bad and fairly useless. Is Villain 1 limp calling a lot or is he often raising? Also, player 2 is an online player but so what...is his range really wide here and if he is a TAG why in the hell does he have 12bbs in front of him?

BTW, betting that flop is a bluff not a value bet. I hope that you realized that. Also, please don't post results until a full 24hrs has passed.
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Old 01-21-2013, 08:08 AM   #14
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I think the preflop sizing is the mistake. I'd be making it $175 to $190 in the case I limp reraised. Stacks are then so we can shove. As played, we're a bit handcuffed and we totally whiffed flop.

Never seen a tag player with $65 at a 2/5 game, how is this a fair description?

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Old 01-21-2013, 12:02 PM   #15
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Re: 2/5 AK UTG

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Dwans Son View Post
If you just raised with AK in the first place you wouldn't be in this spot. Also your raise size is complete crap. Furthermore, your reads on the players is really bad and fairly useless. Is Villain 1 limp calling a lot or is he often raising? Also, player 2 is an online player but so what...is his range really wide here and if he is a TAG why in the hell does he have 12bbs in front of him?

BTW, betting that flop is a bluff not a value bet. I hope that you realized that. Also, please don't post results until a full 24hrs has passed.
This guy nailed it..........Wait, aren't you OP?/lol
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Old 01-21-2013, 04:25 PM   #16
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Re: 2/5 AK UTG

I'm hoping you guys are more observant at the tables. This is a 2011 thread necro bumped by slim.
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Old 01-21-2013, 04:34 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hand Shaker View Post
I'm hoping you guys are more observant at the tables. This is a 2011 thread necro bumped by slim.
Lol! Missed that detail, was lurking on my phone.

Tomdwansson has improved immensly it looks like

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Old 01-21-2013, 04:43 PM   #18
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Re: 2/5 AK UTG

Anytime there's a shorty like this, I try to size things so when they get fed up and jam, I can iso shove out callers between. So, I'd go $25-30 pre, if v1 flats and shorty jams, I feel okay about getting it in being we have blockers.

As played, check. Betters not foldng and worse ain't calling.
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Old 01-21-2013, 05:43 PM   #19
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Re: 2/5 AK UTG

Dont limp.

If we did, 3 bet slightly more to maybe 155.
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Old 01-21-2013, 11:12 PM   #20
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Re: 2/5 AK UTG

That's hilarious. I was starting to worry about multiple personality disorder in llsnl. Not only was OP flaming himself, but V1 and V2 are both in the cutoff. More MPD or is V2 sitting in V1's lap?

I guess we all agree that the raise is too small. If we are truly repping AA or KK, we should raise to about $200. I think $200 is enough to set up an easy jam on the flop. If we're not planning to shove flop, we shouldn't 3bet at all. Is a flat out of the question here? We are getting decent odds to call the $65 and see the flop. If V1 4bets, we can always overshove. That way if we are committing our stack, we are guaranteed to see all 5 cards. AK can be an all or nothing hand after a certain point of preflop action - we don't want to be putting in a large percentage of our stack and risk only seeing 3 cards and then having to give up our equity in the hand.
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Old 01-21-2013, 11:18 PM   #21
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Yeah $180 ish 4b then shove flop is correct play here. It'd be like a 4/5's psb so that's good
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Old 01-22-2013, 12:47 AM   #22
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Re: 2/5 AK UTG

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Originally Posted by crsseyed View Post
This guy nailed it..........Wait, aren't you OP?/lol
Wtf, I'm confused now. Does Tom Dwan have two sons?
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Old 01-22-2013, 01:55 AM   #23
Tom Dwans Son
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Re: 2/5 AK UTG

I had just starting playing live pokerz...so sue me!
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Old 01-22-2013, 04:19 AM   #24
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Re: 2/5 AK UTG

Setsy: Check. That board hits his range hard and its a partially protected pot. If you go to showdown you beat all his overs. No need to bluff here, no worse hand is calling no better folding IMO.

This. Don't like the lrr much, as others have stated. As played I liked a reraise to about 180 then a check (planning on folding) on this flop.

If my line is to jam flop, I would rather just jam preflop then reraise and blindly jam every flop where no worse hand is calling and no better folding. Blindly jamming allows villain to play perfectly against us while we risk maximum money.
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Old 01-22-2013, 05:31 AM   #25
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Re: 2/5 AK UTG

I really don't mind a UTG limp with monster hands if the table is active. AK is strong enough to where it's relatively indifferent to someone putting their stack in PF, and there's generally lots of dead money to boot if it gets there. I don't mind this play at all.
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