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Old 03-12-2019, 02:31 PM   #1
RottPhiler
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2/5 AK Flop decision

Game: 2/5, 1500 max-buyin, 700 max-bet.

Hero: UTG covers. Solid TAG/sLAG image.
V1: HJ ~1700. Fishy, splashy (called a 3-bet with T7s), can wake up with hands, knows how to read boards and bet.
V2: BUT ~900. Complete fish, donks with top-pair into pre-flop aggressors, overvalues top-pair.

Pre-flop:
Hero wakes up with AK and opens standard 4x to $20. V1 3-bets to $75, V2 cold calls, hero calls. Three-ways to a flop with a pot of $225.

Flop: KT2
Hero checks. V1 bets $250. V2 shoves for roughly $825. Pot is $1300. Hero?
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Old 03-12-2019, 02:45 PM   #2
branch0095
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Re: 2/5 AK Flop decision

Pretty easy fold IMO.
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Old 03-12-2019, 02:47 PM   #3
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Re: 2/5 AK Flop decision

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Pretty easy fold IMO.
+1
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Old 03-12-2019, 02:52 PM   #4
fishsoup
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Re: 2/5 AK Flop decision

You should start building a 4b range esp against these opponents

we can fold to this action.. but not a shock if we're chopping / splitting the fish's money
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Old 03-12-2019, 02:56 PM   #5
StinkHolePatrol
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Re: 2/5 AK Flop decision

Gonna 4 bet to 275 preflop and fold to a jam.

As played fold, little invested. Obviously getting it in if they all flatted the 4bet and SPR is different.
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Old 03-12-2019, 03:18 PM   #6
Javanewt
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Re: 2/5 AK Flop decision

4bet pre. As played, just let it go. Gross, though.
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Old 03-12-2019, 04:36 PM   #7
Playbig2000
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Re: 2/5 AK Flop decision

You have to be able to sense TPTK isn't good when the original raiser over bets the pot then gets raised to over 3x. I don't usually see people flatting 3bets with JQ, (occasionally if it's suited), but it's player dependent and I'm not gonna assume they're on a draw and call them off. Pre was a good spot to 4bet. Now fold.
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Old 03-12-2019, 05:21 PM   #8
Havick
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Re: 2/5 AK Flop decision

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You have to be able to sense TPTK isn't good when the original raiser over bets the pot then gets raised to over 3x. I don't usually see people flatting 3bets with JQ, (occasionally if it's suited), but it's player dependent and I'm not gonna assume they're on a draw and call them off. Pre was a good spot to 4bet. Now fold.
+1

Still gross though.
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Old 03-13-2019, 02:48 AM   #9
RottPhiler
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Re: 2/5 AK Flop decision

Alright results:

Hero snap-folded, and V1 snap-called with QQ and lost to V2's KQ. I'm happy with folding, but I had them both down to one-out and the pot was 2K, and got me tilt-wondering if most NL profits come from calling against fish like these. There were solid LAGs at my table who were like "I'm never folding AK there."
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Old 03-13-2019, 03:22 AM   #10
Minatorr
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Re: 2/5 AK Flop decision

sick spot, if you were 100-150bb deep i'd gii against these donks but since you cover HJ and he's completely uncapped i let it go. just call off your sets here and you'll be fine, obv you'll sometimes run into these stupid spots but w.e.

pre is ok to just call, you dont give indication that the 3-bettor 3-bets too lite so im assuming he's mostly 3-betting tight vs utg open
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Old 03-13-2019, 01:45 PM   #11
shorn7
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Re: 2/5 AK Flop decision

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Originally Posted by RottPhiler View Post
Alright results:

Hero snap-folded, and V1 snap-called with QQ and lost to V2's KQ. I'm happy with folding, but I had them both down to one-out and the pot was 2K, and got me tilt-wondering if most NL profits come from calling against fish like these. There were solid LAGs at my table who were like "I'm never folding AK there."
No it doesn't. Most NL profits come from betting for value when we are relatively certain we are ahead and maximizing those spots combined with a solid bet/fold strategy in other spots. This spot is not a value spot given the action.

I can go either way on 4! or flat pre. V and table dependent.
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Old 03-13-2019, 01:59 PM   #12
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Re: 2/5 AK Flop decision

I 4bet or fold pre. Calling is the least attractive option. Probably lean fold given 4x 3bet UTG open + overcall.
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Old 03-13-2019, 02:05 PM   #13
Minatorr
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Re: 2/5 AK Flop decision

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I 4bet or fold pre. Calling is the least attractive option. Probably lean fold given 4x 3bet UTG open + overcall.
I think when a fish cold-calls OTB im more likely to just flat. Id expect him to have a lot of junky hands like Axss/broadways/SCs etc and we can “cooler” him post, 4b pre isnt very attractive vs a non crazy 3-bettor attacking an UTG open. I dont think i can fold vs a 2 fun/splashy players pre
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Old 03-13-2019, 02:52 PM   #14
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Re: 2/5 AK Flop decision

What are the odds of outflopping a PP (V1) AND hoping V2 has a hand like AQ/KQ rather than a more likely PP AND you both flopping same pair AND coolering him from OOP? Seems like a tall task.

I’d certainly call AKs and maybe even AKo IP, but offsuit OOP vs. a 4x 3bet vs. UTG open just has RIO written all over it.
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Old 03-14-2019, 01:00 AM   #15
Minatorr
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Re: 2/5 AK Flop decision

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Originally Posted by johnnyBuz View Post
What are the odds of outflopping a PP (V1) AND hoping V2 has a hand like AQ/KQ rather than a more likely PP AND you both flopping same pair AND coolering him from OOP? Seems like a tall task.

I’d certainly call AKs and maybe even AKo IP, but offsuit OOP vs. a 4x 3bet vs. UTG open just has RIO written all over it.
Against a "complete fish" I expect him to be much wider than AQ/KQ. Yes if a reg cold-called otb or some OMC i'm folding AKo, but i wouldn't here. V1 doesn't necessarily always have a PP either, he can def have AKo/AQs/AQo or who knows what else at some small frequency.

I'm not expecting to cooler anyone postflop although when we do it's nice. I expect the cold-caller to have a ton of AQ/KQs/KJs/Axs here, even KQo.

Look at how fishy they played post/pre. If we had gotten a little more favorable flop we'd have tripled up. I would fold AKo to heavy action like this normally but not against a "fun/splashy" player and a "complete fish" getting great odds. Yeah it's not a fist-pump call though.

Last edited by Minatorr; 03-14-2019 at 01:05 AM.
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Old 03-14-2019, 09:28 AM   #16
tmo1120
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Re: 2/5 AK Flop decision

+1 to 4b pre, being OOP vs 2 players makes this a more attractive option
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Old 03-14-2019, 09:48 AM   #17
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Re: 2/5 AK Flop decision

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Originally Posted by Javanewt View Post
4bet pre. As played, just let it go. Gross, though.
Very gross, especially if it shows down and he has KQ or KJ. But the huge flop bet elicits the info you need at the expense of V1, who still has to act and could have a big hand. V2 can easily have TT or KTss.
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Old 03-14-2019, 11:18 AM   #18
pcarfan
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Re: 2/5 AK Flop decision

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Originally Posted by RottPhiler View Post
Alright results:

Hero snap-folded, and V1 snap-called with QQ and lost to V2's KQ. I'm happy with folding, but I had them both down to one-out and the pot was 2K, and got me tilt-wondering if most NL profits come from calling against fish like these. There were solid LAGs at my table who were like "I'm never folding AK there."
Definitely solid players...best way to tilt you even more, at least make you second guess your plays...good EV move on their part. Hope it didn't work on you.
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Old 03-14-2019, 11:28 AM   #19
Prince_of_Whales
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Re: 2/5 AK Flop decision

When fishy guy cold calls OTB id lean toward 4betting to 3x especially since we're UTG. I like calling too though to keep the fishy guy in knowing hes likely very wide in this spot.

As played insta muck. You can call off w/ TT, KTs. AA/KK I believe are mandatory 4bets and if we arrive in this same configuration 4 ways Im checking my whole range here and calling off with AA/KK.

Last edited by Prince_of_Whales; 03-14-2019 at 11:32 AM. Reason: 4bet considerations
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Old 03-14-2019, 12:49 PM   #20
RottPhiler
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Re: 2/5 AK Flop decision

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Definitely solid players...best way to tilt you even more, at least make you second guess your plays...good EV move on their part. Hope it didn't work on you.
Well, these two LAGs make a ton of money by playing their image and betting, raising, and in turn, calling light. Stacks of chips go in on lots of boards, with the majority of the time going from the fish to the LAGs. That's not my game, and I know I can't play like them. So I don't usually pay any attention to what they say, but this spot falls more into the "I could easily have the best hand against these two, and why am I folding top-top here against these two? Am I playing too tight?" thought process.
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Old 03-14-2019, 01:16 PM   #21
pcarfan
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Re: 2/5 AK Flop decision

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Originally Posted by RottPhiler View Post
Well, these two LAGs make a ton of money by playing their image and betting, raising, and in turn, calling light. Stacks of chips go in on lots of boards, with the majority of the time going from the fish to the LAGs. That's not my game, and I know I can't play like them. So I don't usually pay any attention to what they say, but this spot falls more into the "I could easily have the best hand against these two, and why am I folding top-top here against these two? Am I playing too tight?" thought process.
I agree 100%...it's not my game either. Good LAG's r hard to beat.

However, fish like the V in your hand is easy to beat...Its just a matter of time. I don't see why I should risk my chips with "marginal" (easy fold, I think...) decision as in your hand...I know they will eventually donate their chips (hopefully to me), so I play my game and wait for a better opportunity.

But those good LAG's on the table now know you folded TPTK...they may capitalize that in the future - they are difficult to play as it is, y show them extra ways to exploit us.

P.S: I don't think even the best LAG's can forever deal with the variance though...but they look good until they crash and burn.
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Old 03-14-2019, 04:22 PM   #22
tmo1120
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Re: 2/5 AK Flop decision

if descriptions of V's were made before this hand, then I don't think going with it on the flop is a bad idea, there are so few value combo's that beat your hand . 10 combos? safe to say that 22 isn't in that dudes 3b range so more like 7

if he can bet/call with QQ then why not with JJ?

V2 is a complete fish .. so he could have some draws here .. or even worse sometimes

I think it's a closer spot than people are making it out to be given the descriptions of V's ; not saying it's a slam dunk call , but it's something you should think about before snap folding
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