The hand histories suggest otherwise. 4-betting A7s from MP (and OOP?) is really wide and unless the 3-bettor is 3-betting with like K2s, it's a mistake.

ETA: J9s ffs

Also tighten up your open range and get position on these guys. You need to put fear in them so they avoid playing with you.

Small samples provided, and lol at flopping TP in 3b pots (no problemo), but in these samples what stands out most is that you open 4b A7 OOP but open called AQ OOP. Again, it's only a few hands, but you're going to want to have AQ in as 4b value-call and A7s possibly more of an open fold. Long story short, I can't sit here and build ranges out, but playing A7 without AQ as a value backstop is not pretty. Also, when IP, if they are not capable of playing as well as you post (sounds like they can't), then you likely have little to worry about when IP - just fold some stuff that doesn't play well and flat the rest and punish their ranges post.

I wouldnt ever adopt a 4bet/f range, you're just lighting tons of money on fire. With 100BB stacks I 4bet jam over their 3bets with 22/A4s/KJ+ if I think they're out of line. At 200BB or more I flat all of their 3bets and look to x/r flops a lot (mostly for value), just really put the fear into them that they're going to see a flop and there's going to be more action. A lot of players who 3bet pre are just playing a preflop game hoping that you simply fold. I mean lets face if you're 3betting Q8s it's going to be tough to play postflop, so their goal isnt to play future streets with you.

1. Figure out if there is a certain leak you have that is giving them incentive to 3bet light or if they are just 3bet monkeys with egos.

2. At some point you'll have to find out how they react to 4bets. Start by constructing and using a 4betting range that will make them indifferent to defending against your 4bets, then after you get a decent idea of how they're reacting adjust your 4betting range and exploit accordingly.

It's pretty standard to have AQ in a 3-bet calling range and a weak suited ace as a 4b/f.

Well OP, what is happening is that your better villains are exploiting your wide open frequenzy.

Even if you have a more than good winrate over the last 300 hours or so i woudnt use that as an excuse not to make readjustments to your villains exploitaing you. It will pretty obviously hurt your winrate if you just ignore it and keep on with "business as usual" aka opening too wide pre.

Usually wheel aces no?, AQ can certainly call - but when being 3b often enough in 2/5 to actually have to worry about a 4b range, I think it's important to have AQ as an always 4b oop (esp if 4b A7).

I'd 4b/f AQo vs a 3bet, and call AQs when opening from ep. In later positions, when calling 3bets with hands like AQo, KQ, AJs, etc, becomes profitable, I'd 4b/f A2s-A5s.

These opening ranges are decent overall imo. I do think the mp should remain a bit more snug if 3! Is prevalent but you are more in line than the impression I got from the op.

Generally we should be inclined to flat more ip and 4! Oop. Esp deeper our skill edge + posn should be able to make life miserable for v in a lot of spots. Shortening stacks mitigates some of the positional advantage. Most of the hh holdings seem like no brainer defends vs a potentially wide 3!. (A7 turn shove was interesting).

From the HHs the 88 defend stands out though. I might have that at the btm of my late posn ip 3! Flat range but that's about it. It's mostly a nightmare oop in a 4! Pot. I get that it doesn't matter the times they fold pre but other than the times we flop a set we are playing 2 card chicken with weak sdv and 2 outs. I'd rather have a mid-SC actually where our flopped pairs have likely 5 outs with the weak sdv and most of the flops we continue on past the flop without sdv have 4 or 8 outs to nuttedhands + 6 outs to sdv and little risk of domination. TT is about the weakest pp I occasionally 4! In fact I just 4! It the other night and v showed up with a Q9 3! Vs my button open.

The strongish hands aside, obviously our near zero EV hands are taking the worst of it in 3! Spots. Certainly oop. Tightening our mp ranges even just a bit in these games with more 3! Ing puts us oop a tad less and with slightly stronger ranges obv. Allowing us to defend appropriately with a mix of 4! And flats ip and less need to 4! Airballs or poor candidate hands oop.


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I was particularly wondering about AQ... I recently saw a Doug Polk video where he said he uses AQ as a 4bet/fold and flats AK (because he's not looking to stack off with AK). I've gotten myself into a lot of trouble 4betting AK, then convincing myself to go crazy with it.

If AQ is an ideal 4bet/fold hand because blockers, does that make KQ a good 4bet/fold hand as well?

Anyway, the gist of this is, when I'm sitting at a table with one of these guys and they've 3bet me for the 5th or 6th or 7th time or whatever that session, I'm just starting to think "are you f*ing serious dude?"

From their perspective, I think they tend to look at it as they have FE pre, but not the end of the world if they get called - just a bigger pot and hopefully some dead money. The one thing that they don't have to worry about, in general, at 2/5 games is getting 4bet light. So it is a profitable part of their overall strategy, but I don't think it needs to be profitable against me.

So yeah, I think I need to widen my 4bet range and make it so they know that's a good possibility if they 3bet... Especially because it's next to impossible to have a reasonable 5bet bluff range if we go like $20->$70->$190, then any 5bet is going to commit them at 1k stacks (and after I 4bet, a flop cbet of like $155-$165 has similar leverage as it will leave less than a PSB behind).

1) table selection
2) seat change
3) tighten range
4) open smaller

It would be fun to open up and have a wide open range and a decent 4b range but the fact of the matter is the collective non fold equity of the table should 1) define your opening range and 2) protect your opening range

It took me 5 years and a great post from BGP to really get bolded. Its like the single most important concept when thinking about anything in live full ring poker.

In the context of me being one of the more vocal proponents of LLSNL raising more and being more aggressive and me applauding you for being open to 4-betting lighter ...

It really sounds like you've got an ego things going on. You're clearly annoyed by them 3-betting you (even though they may be doing so rationally and properly) and it's very telling that you phrased your response "I want them to know that" rather that "I want to exploit their mistake by."

I think you should take a brutally honest look at your opening and 4-betting ranges. You're 4-betting some hands some hands that I - a widely regarded LAGtard in pretty LAGgy games - wouldn't 2-bet.

There's a huge difference in late position and early position dickery. If it's folded to you on the button and one of the blinds 3-bets you, that's different from opening the CO and having BTN 3-bet you, which in turn is hugely different from opening UTG and having BTN 3-bet you, which in turn is a whole different ballpark from opening UTG and the BB 3-betting you. Your opening range changes significantly, their optimal 3-betting range varies quite a lot in response, and your optimal 4-betting range will vary wildly in response.

And sometimes the optimal line is going to involve meekly folding and calling and check/folding. If you can't emotionally deal with letting go of your weakest hands because you alpha male hear you roar, you should tighten way up because you're going to hemmorrage money by trying to win every hand you think you're entitled to win IMO.

Yeah man, put your ego aside. They're making correct adjustments to your super wide opening range and are exploiting you hard. You arent entitled to be the table captain or anything like that.

Just tighten up when they're at the table, or be ready to do crazy **** like Vanessa Selbst does, such as effectively 6-bet jamming J7dd 400bb deep

...but she's broke.

She is? LOL. Didn't know.

I was just joking about getting into preflop wars like those though.

OOP consider your 4-bet range more carefully as a wider rage than you probably have. Also, figure out what looks like a good cold call range OOP. Decide what that range truly looks like and stick with it! Stop worrying about weather they will 3-bet you relentlessly.

Figure out your 4-bet range vs cold call and be ready to pounce, stop thinking "oh this time he is 3-betting for real or this feels like he is 3 betting light"... Play the damn ranges in an absolute fashion and they won't know what to do.

Cold Call- AQ-ATsuited, KQ suited,JJ, TT, AQo
4Bet- QQ+, AKs/o, A9-A2s, KJs, QJs, KTs

Notice the 4 bet range is larger OOP than the cold call. The opposite is true when in position. Those example ranges of 4betting v Cold calling the 3-bet were mostly for Hero's early position opens UTG, UTG1, UTG2

Note: Do not think when you have a hand in the 4B range you feel is weak (*ie KTs)... You have to play that KTs just the same as if you had AA.

To follow up with my previous post, you are usually getting 3! from your open in later positions and the 3! comes from the blinds or BTN when you are stealing. Thus, your Cold Call range becomes wider here and your 4! range is less combos; thus, IP you call more and play post flop more often with position.

4! wider when OOP and Cold Call more IP

I think you are going to have do develop a 4-bet strategy that randomizes your actions with your opening range. For instance I do not want to always 4-bet AA if the pot is already heads up. I might want to open JTs in the cut off. The BB might raise. I have a random method that selects between flat, 4-bet, and fold. That way I am taking any action I might consider with any part of my opening range.

One thing that a few people have mentioned already that is probably sorely underestimated is the simple act of over-adjusting. Dont do it. Yeah you're being 3bet a lot, and an adjustment probably needs to be made. But honestly you dont have to go all out and unwind everything thats happening at the table. Raise a little less, 4bet a little less, and overall just make slight shifts into your betting frequencies. You're still going to be raising A4s and 77 and stuff, but maybe lay off QTo, KTo, Ax offsuit, 46s-79s, etc. Just sorta trim the fat. It'll keep you out of trouble, possibly get them off your ass since you'll look like you have chilled out a little, and still present you with a balanced range of hands that play well vs them when the timing is right.

^^^^^^^
Solid post imo.

I started a response yesterday but didn't get to post. Much has been covered since but imma post my thoughts anyway.

I did want to mention that if villains actually 3! Lite Too much and only respond by calling or folding even oop it is conceivable that hero can profitably 4! Them with atc.

I'm not saying that is the case but it is a thing.

Since most llsnl villains adjust to increased 3! Frequency by calling more, you are correct imo that villain 3! Strat vs perceived wide openers is profitable.

Spending time trying to develop a counter strat is >>>>>>> table changing or whatever other advice was given along those lines *IMO* Unless you are a 2/5 pro makes by a living frying fish I guess. But my guess is you can profit off these regs.

On the Doug Polk comment re:AK there is also a blurb in Janda's book in the section on constructing 3! And 4! Ranges where he says:

Obv take with grain of salt as optimal opponents are few and far between but yeah it's a valid point. In Janda's sample ranges AK shows up as a 4! In spots where the 3 bettor should be a little wider such as c/o vs btn, Sb vs bb, bb vs btn. He uses a lot of AK and AQ as flats and 4! With some of his AJ-. But that book is geared toward six max somewhat with smaller 3.5x open raises. The principle is the same but live FR vs potentially lite 3! I think AQ is a decent 4!/f hand.

I think KQ is better in our flatting range. It still blocks KK,QQ, AK, AQ and has decent straight making ability and probably fares better vs a 3! Range than a 4! Call range as far as risk of domination.

Constructing these ranges has a ton to do with the openers position/perceived range, the 3 bettor's position and whether he will be "raising or folding" exclusively or will flat as well to the reraise.

The thing about doing the range construction exercise from the beginning to me is that you just start from a min defense frequency standpoint assuming typical bet and raise sizing. Work out some math and you can get an idea from your opening range then how many combos you will need to continue with to prevent villain from auto profiting. It needs to be adjusted based on how much are raises vs flats but what you will find quickly is that maintaining an acceptable value to bluff ratio with the raises will become difficult and that it may all lead back to a slightly tighter opening range. Which was sort of my point up thread.

Obv we can be unbalanced if our opponents are 3! Bluffing too much, but knowing what our somewhat balanced range looks like is a pretty good place to start IMO. And obv it will include some folds to 3!.

It is likely true that exploitive > balanced in general at llsnl but situations like these are, I think, perfect for starting with a solid understanding of the ingredients for a balanced strat and adjusting from there.

I'm hoping you follow up itt tbh.



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Very good thoughts/points here... And some good points in this thread in general. I'm still trying to work out exactly what my strategy is, and while I do find myself getting slightly tighter naturally when there are aggro players to my left, I'm not just going to nit it up and just give it to them. I'll try to follow up here once I really go through the process of analytically trying to work out the different scenarios (and their likelihood) that may unfold when I choose to 3bet/4bet both IP and OOP. Part of the difficulty here is I just really don't know what a reasonable 4bet flatting range might be on villain's part, and how they respond to different sizings and positions. But I think in general I have a good "feel", so really not too too concerned that I'll be "hemorrhaging" a ton of money as some ITT think I will. And anyway, when I do spew off money in bluffs or getting it in light or whatever, I tend to quickly make it back from the people who saw it, who decide I can never ever have a hand.