This just approximates being UTG in a 20/40 game with 12.5 BB. So don't limp anything (unless you want to get fancy with AA). You can shove with something roughly looking like 88+ AQ+, or you can raise everything to 120 and include some looser stuff, like AJ and KQ. Either way is fine.
First off, if this guy is doing this with any regularity, try to get on his right. Then you'll have amazing relative position, getting to see what the rest of the table does before you act.
As above, don't call anything, unless other people are responding by shoving their whole ranges, in which case you can trap with AA/KK.
I wouldn't raise to $120 with anything either, since you are in bad relative position.
this happens alot in live low limit poker, so knowing the math of it is useful
believe it nor not, if the value of the raise is 10% of your stack you can shove with QTs or better as QTs is the breakeven line
A9s is the effective nuts
pairs are a bit trickier, but 88 is the baseline
it's not just the actual hand you have, you can extend the math to what the rest of the table can actually call with, AT, AJ can be shoved but not called, so we have a set of hands that are in the Nash Equilibrium, profitable because better hands have to fold, along with another set of hands that have sufficient equity when called (K9s comes to mind)
this happens alot in live low limit poker, so knowing the math of it is useful
believe it nor not, if the value of the raise is 10% of your stack you can shove with QTs or better as QTs is the breakeven line
A9s is the effective nuts
pairs are a bit trickier, but 88 is the baseline
it's not just the actual hand you have, you can extend the math to what the rest of the table can actually call with, AT, AJ can be shoved but not called, so we have a set of hands that are in the Nash Equilibrium, profitable because better hands have to fold, along with another set of hands that have sufficient equity when called (K9s comes to mind)
What happens when you're 200-400 bb's deep and at least two other people on the table are as deep as you.
What happens when you're 200-400 bb's deep and at least two other people on the table are as deep as you.
How would you adjust your range?
When someone straddles or blind raises, the effective stakes are raised for that hand. So 200-400BBs becomes ~20-40 BBs. Just play as you would at that stack depth (although err on the side of lowering variance since you're not rolled for a $20/$40 NLH game).
this happens alot in live low limit poker, so knowing the math of it is useful
believe it nor not, if the value of the raise is 10% of your stack you can shove with QTs or better as QTs is the breakeven line
A9s is the effective nuts
pairs are a bit trickier, but 88 is the baseline
it's not just the actual hand you have, you can extend the math to what the rest of the table can actually call with, AT, AJ can be shoved but not called, so we have a set of hands that are in the Nash Equilibrium, profitable because better hands have to fold, along with another set of hands that have sufficient equity when called (K9s comes to mind)
Does this take into effect there are 7 players yet to act? Doesn't look like it.
Get to guys right. Look for spots to jam on him. Good luck. Hate when games deteriorate into this.
It does take it into effect. You actually only need A9s to shove on an effective 10BB stack from UTG+2 to show an unexploitable profit. Comes up a lot in tournaments so i think tournament players will play these spots better.
this is effectively UTG btw, shoving A9s UTG is a profit, shoving A9o is not, it's exactly the breakeven line mathematically, fortunately for you guys i played a lot of turbos online because you can stack tables but most cash players will not call with ATo so A9o is probably a profit too, there were definitely regs who would call ATo behind you if they actually knew the math but doubt low limit cash players would ever overcall
Nope, hate it. Playing 5-10% of my hands all night long.
No thank you. It is great if he comes and dumps few buy-ins quickly. As my true love is playing deep!!!!
But you are correct. Most love these games. And it is very easy to make a profit obviously.
If you are only jamming 5-10% of hands with perfect relative position on someone raising blind to 10x, you are likely under-doing it significantly. Either that or the rest of the table is way better at adjusting than most LLSNL tables.
Of course, there is no SB, so the unexploitable shoving range is a bit tighter. Considering the open raiser is probably going to call too loose, and everyone else is probably going to call too tight, I'd dump lower equity blocker hands and focus on hands that do well against the openers range. Big cards and pairs are good, maybe something like {66+, ATs+, AJ+, KJs+, KQo}.
Obviously if we had better position we could potentially jam way, way looser. The biggest risk is someone waking up with a big hand.
If you are only jamming 5-10% of hands with perfect relative position on someone raising blind to 10x, you are likely under-doing it significantly. Either that or the rest of the table is way better at adjusting than most LLSNL tables.
Nah, I would be jamming constantly. May not even look and just flip with the guy. But I assume at least 3-4 other guys at table will be looking to beat me into pot.
You'd be amazed how often people limp/fold in these scenarios. I recall one game when I shoved over two limpers with AJs, the maniac called and both limpers folded. When they saw my hand, they were shocked. One claimed to have folded TT and the other "a better ace than that."
That push/fold site has an option for no antes. We have 12.5BB here (There's 57 in the pot, so roughly like blinds are 20/40). Its suggestion for 12BB, no antes is { 99+ ATs+ A3s-A5s AQo+ KJs+ QJs } and virtually identical for 13BB, so a bit looser than the range I gave. I think you probably want to raise small instead and try to play a little poker, but shoving is fine if you're not confident doing that.
Interesting that shoving ranges are so loose. I'm used to having stacks like that in tournaments where ranges are a bit tighter because of ICM considerations.
And yeah like Garick said, worth mentioning that you want to be a LOT looser in later seats. The main risk here is running into a big pair or something nasty like that, so less people still to act sharply decreases the risks of shoving.
Of course, there is no SB, so the unexploitable shoving range is a bit tighter. Considering the open raiser is probably going to call too loose, and everyone else is probably going to call too tight, I'd dump lower equity blocker hands and focus on hands that do well against the openers range. Big cards and pairs are good, maybe something like {66+, ATs+, AJ+, KJs+, KQo}.
Obviously if we had better position we could potentially jam way, way looser. The biggest risk is someone waking up with a big hand.
The risk of someone waking up with a big hand is factored in to this equation. This assumes a 100% calling rate with TT and a 100% fold rate with 77, i.e., this assumes our GTO play is met with GTO play, which it won't. The moment they make a calling or folding mistake they become exploitable, that's why I would shove looser and go with A9s.
interestingly if people make calling mistakes then 66 and 77 are WORSE to shove, so anyway, this is how i would adjust my range to the live dynamics, add A9s and ATo and eliminate 66 and 77
KTo is actually a 60-40 (approx) favorite over ATC.
But it doesn't do well with Villains calling the blind raiser in front of us (duh obviously) and I'd be nervous with it with 3 or more readless Villains behind me.
Effective stack sizes matter in that we would be committing more to pick off the $50 the deeper the effective stacks are.
YMMV but I have been comfortable shoving KTo with a $130 stack (capped games such as the Commerce and some other rooms) and two other Villains behind me against a $50 blind raiser. In some games while the moon is full this happens a lot, and sometimes the blind raise is larger, so this is something that's worth working out for ourselves away from the table so that we are prepared whatever game we are playing in.
interestingly if people make calling mistakes then 66 and 77 are WORSE to shove, so anyway, this is how i would adjust my range to the live dynamics, add A9s and ATo and eliminate 66 and 77
I completely agree. While most of the table calls the shove too shove, the blind $50 raiser is looking to gamble and will typically call with 30+ percent of the hands if not more.
The risk of someone waking up with a big hand is factored in to this equation. This assumes a 100% calling rate with TT and a 100% fold rate with 77, i.e., this assumes our GTO play is met with GTO play, which it won't. The moment they make a calling or folding mistake they become exploitable, that's why I would shove looser and go with A9s.
interestingly if people make calling mistakes then 66 and 77 are WORSE to shove, so anyway, this is how i would adjust my range to the live dynamics, add A9s and ATo and eliminate 66 and 77
I know it's factored in.
The reason I added 66-77 was because I expect people other than UTG to make folding mistakes, not calling mistakes, and they do well against UTG's likely calling range (lots of hands). ATo/A9s are probably fine to add, too. I don't think hands like QTs have enough equity against a wide UTG.
yeah it's somewhat surprising that QTs is profitable to shove but it is. that's why it's often a good cold 4 shove hand at around 100BBs
this is kind of different but kind of not: if there is a $15 raise and a $50 3bet, you can actually cold 4 bet shove as low as QTs some x% with 100BB and show breakeven vs a standard range, and the worse they play the better it performs, for example a lot of people have KQ and AQ in their 3bet range but not in their 4bet calling range and I've done this before at 2/5 and had people fold QQ face up. I once had a guy tank call with JJ and I got there. It's a useful play to keep in mind.
yeah it's somewhat surprising that QTs is profitable to shove but it is. that's why it's often a good cold 4 shove hand at around 100BBs
this is kind of different but kind of not: if there is a $15 raise and a $50 3bet, you can actually cold 4 bet shove as low as QTs some x% with 100BB and show breakeven vs a standard range, and the worse they play the better it performs, for example a lot of people have KQ and AQ in their 3bet range but not in their 4bet calling range and I've done this before at 2/5 and had people fold QQ face up. I once had a guy tank call with JJ and I got there. It's a useful play to keep in mind.
How many times did you get snapped by Ak/KK+ before you dropped it...
yeah it's somewhat surprising that QTs is profitable to shove but it is. that's why it's often a good cold 4 shove hand at around 100BBs
this is kind of different but kind of not: if there is a $15 raise and a $50 3bet, you can actually cold 4 bet shove as low as QTs some x% with 100BB and show breakeven vs a standard range, and the worse they play the better it performs, for example a lot of people have KQ and AQ in their 3bet range but not in their 4bet calling range and I've done this before at 2/5 and had people fold QQ face up. I once had a guy tank call with JJ and I got there. It's a useful play to keep in mind.
“Profitable at equilubrium” is not the same as profitable.
4-betting QTs and seeing QQ fold is not a reason to choose QTs to 4-bet. You block his folding range.
