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Old 05-16-2018, 09:20 PM   #1
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2/5 - AA 200bbs deep

$2/$5, 9-handed.

Hero (UTG+1) - Winning LAG image. $950.

V1 (HJ) - Winning TAG image. $1000.

V2 (BB) - TAGfish. $1500.

UTG limps $5
Hero raises $25 with Ac Ad
V1 3bets $85
V2 cold-calls $85
UTG folds
Hero ???

I'm trying to decide between 3 options: flat the 3bet, make a small 4bet or 4bet jam. I don't think there's really any room to make a "standard" squeeze of 5x here ($425) with our stack sizes, since anything over 1/3rd pot is an effective jam anyway.

The downside to AA is that it blocks a lot of their calling range - hands like AK and AQ are what we want to be up against. It also doesn't need as much protection as a hand like KK, so I can certainly see some merit into downplaying this.

If I jam it all-in then I get maximum value from KK, but I doubt people are stacking off QQ or AK very often for 200bbs.

Thoughts would be much appreciated. Thank you.
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Old 05-16-2018, 09:27 PM   #2
Mr Spyutastic
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Re: 2/5 - AA 200bbs deep

I think flatting is pretty much the worst option other than folding.

The only real decision is how much to 4 bet. Since V2 cold flat and you're OOP vs the 3 bettor I prefer a larger sizing.

I think $280 feels about right.
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Old 05-16-2018, 09:46 PM   #3
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Re: 2/5 - AA 200bbs deep

While it doesn't happen often, when I'm 200bb effective or less and my AA gets 3-bet, I 4-bet jam. I'm always very surprised by the hands that call. I got called by 74s once!?!

You certainly can make a "standard" 4bet to $425 if you want, however I've looked at it like this: Whatever their calling range is for $425, it's likely almost the same range that calls a jam, however the 4bet option gives them an opportunity to get a bad flop and get out. Smaller 3-bets can potentially price them in to out flop you, even if they do call it with a slightly wider range.

I guess what I'm trying to say is just jam here 100%, or raise to an amount that makes it impossible for them to call profitably assuming the rest of the stacks go in post flop.

I'm only flatting this if I'm much much deeper and against better opponents that will crush me if I play a face up range out of position.
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Old 05-16-2018, 09:48 PM   #4
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Re: 2/5 - AA 200bbs deep

Up to $350ish if you’re confident v1 ain’t messing around

@ 1k eff w/him i think once you breach $400+ he may fold AK, QQ too often (assuming he is at all competent)
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Old 05-17-2018, 12:05 AM   #5
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Re: 2/5 - AA 200bbs deep

Flatting the 3-bet? No. Just no. $300-325.
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Old 05-17-2018, 01:00 AM   #6
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Re: 2/5 - AA 200bbs deep

Anything you do is going to look super strong here. But you can’t just flat and let him outflop you for cheap. Make it $290.
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Old 05-17-2018, 01:23 AM   #7
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Re: 2/5 - AA 200bbs deep

Flatting isn't that bad. Like, our SPR is pretty great. vs good players, we're much more likely to stack QQ and JJ by flatting than reraising.

Still, the standard is to reraise. We don't need to 5x to 4bet. I'd do 295.
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Old 05-17-2018, 03:24 AM   #8
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Re: 2/5 - AA 200bbs deep

flatting is really bad. must 4bet imo.

and i disagree that AA blocks their calling range. i wouldnt really expect anyone with half a brain to call a 4-bet with AQ <200bb deep in a $2/5 game.
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Old 05-17-2018, 06:43 AM   #9
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Re: 2/5 - AA 200bbs deep

I decided to 4bet small. Now what?

Hero 4bets $250
V1 calls $250
V2 calls $250

Flop ($750, 3ways) is Qh Jc 9h

We have Ac Ad and $700 behind
V1 donk jams $750
Hero ???

So V1 just jams into both of us for a pot-sized bet. This board texture appears to hit their 4bet calling range quite hard. Either of them could have a set here. Do we call it off or make a huge laydown?
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Old 05-17-2018, 06:55 AM   #10
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Re: 2/5 - AA 200bbs deep

Not happily, but get in.
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Old 05-17-2018, 08:09 AM   #11
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Re: 2/5 - AA 200bbs deep

imo I'd probs fold this flop
Only real hand you beat here is KK, and im not even sure he donk jams with it.
I doubt TAG V1 will call a 4bet with AQ, or bluff AK here
This reeks of QQ, JJ
Also have to consider V2 cold calling the 3b and 4b and this flop smacks his range
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Old 05-17-2018, 08:14 AM   #12
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Re: 2/5 - AA 200bbs deep

Wait does V2 BB donk jam or does V1 in HJ jam?
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Old 05-17-2018, 08:38 AM   #13
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Re: 2/5 - AA 200bbs deep

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Originally Posted by KID777777 View Post
Wait does V2 BB donk jam or does V1 in HJ jam?
Sorry, I meant to say that V2 jams (the TAGfish in the BB), now it's on hero to act (UTG+1). The other reg (V1 in HJ) hasn't acted yet.
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Old 05-17-2018, 08:39 AM   #14
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Re: 2/5 - AA 200bbs deep

Looks like the V2 fish donks since he is BB. (Btw, what is a TAGfish?)

I'd try to get a read on the other V. If he looks weak, I'd call with draws aplenty, that our hand does not block. TX/hearts along with 2p+. Maybe KK?

If the other V looks reasonably strong, I can let this go.

Pre - $340.
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Old 05-17-2018, 08:44 AM   #15
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Re: 2/5 - AA 200bbs deep

Agree with samo -- more pre, try to get a read on other V, and what's a TAGfish?
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Old 05-17-2018, 09:14 AM   #16
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Re: 2/5 - AA 200bbs deep

A TAGfish is someone who's kind of a reg, knows the basics, shows a moderate amount of aggression and folds a decent amount pre, but isn't as great as the online grinders. Often these kind of players will set-mine way too often, call with suited connectors too often, and get a bit sticky with overpairs and TPTK post. But they're not as bad as the loose-passive fish.

I'd say that most low stakes live regs fall into the TAGfish category.

The other player (V1 - The TAG reg in HJ) is a more competent player than the TAGfish imo.
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Old 05-17-2018, 10:52 AM   #17
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Re: 2/5 - AA 200bbs deep

Pre is def a 4bet, as there is a cold call and you are OOP, I would prefer a sizing $350-$380.

Flop, fold.
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Old 05-17-2018, 11:14 AM   #18
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Re: 2/5 - AA 200bbs deep

I'm calling. This is TT so often from a tagfish.
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Old 05-17-2018, 11:35 AM   #19
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Re: 2/5 - AA 200bbs deep

I would definitely 4! pre and would size it smaller to encourage them to stay in the hand. So $250 is fine to me.

While I agree that the flop isn't all that great for you, I don't see how we can fold now (especially since we don't hold the Ah). Sucks but, combinatorically there are 12 total combos of KK and TT (6 each) that would donk shove and only 9 combos of sets (which also might not shove as if you 4! with AK, then they want you to shove this flop). There is also 1 combo of AK so I see 13 legit combos you beat and 9 you lose to right now. Pot is laying you 2-1 so you need 33% to call and with those combos you have more than that so I woul GII.
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Old 05-17-2018, 02:02 PM   #20
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Re: 2/5 - AA 200bbs deep

After the preflop action I dont think there is a flop or action that will ever result in me doing anything other than shoving the flop. That hasnt changed. All in.
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Old 05-18-2018, 01:48 AM   #21
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Re: 2/5 - AA 200bbs deep

I am very likely to fold with 1 behind. If we're last to act I think calling is better.
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Old 05-18-2018, 04:55 AM   #22
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Re: 2/5 - AA 200bbs deep

Never flat here. 4 bet 101: construct a range, start with AA in almost any situation, add other hands after.
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Old 05-18-2018, 03:07 PM   #23
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Re: 2/5 - AA 200bbs deep

Quote:
Originally Posted by shorn7 View Post
I would definitely 4! pre and would size it smaller to encourage them to stay in the hand. So $250 is fine to me.

While I agree that the flop isn't all that great for you, I don't see how we can fold now (especially since we don't hold the Ah). Sucks but, combinatorically there are 12 total combos of KK and TT (6 each) that would donk shove and only 9 combos of sets (which also might not shove as if you 4! with AK, then they want you to shove this flop). There is also 1 combo of AK so I see 13 legit combos you beat and 9 you lose to right now. Pot is laying you 2-1 so you need 33% to call and with those combos you have more than that so I woul GII.
This is all well and good in a heads up pot, but when there's still another player to act behind (the guy that 3bet pre then flatted the 4bet), doesn't that drastically increase the chance that someone has a set here?
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Old 05-18-2018, 03:30 PM   #24
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Re: 2/5 - AA 200bbs deep

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Originally Posted by 6bet me View Post
This is all well and good in a heads up pot, but when there's still another player to act behind (the guy that 3bet pre then flatted the 4bet), doesn't that drastically increase the chance that someone has a set here?
If the V's were reversed then there is a small chance that I could find a fold. However, lets look at combos oh hands that might flat a 4!.

99: 3 left
TT: 6 left
JJ: 3 Left
QQ: 3 left
KK: 6 left
AK: 8 left
AA: 1 left

So even if you only give say 2 combos of AK (AK and AKx) that is 14 hands that we are ahead of and 9 we are behind and one where we chop (which is less likely as most players will 5! ship after the action...additionally, I am going to assume KT/T8 are not in the range and if either is, then strap on the belt and stay here forever, yahoo). Also, there is a small chance of AQss in the 4! calling range (especially from TAGfish).

Getting 2-1 (or 3-1 if HJ also calls) is simply too good a price to fold unless you thought these guys were super nits who would only ship with a set. Not saying it is a fistpump, but I think you need to prepare yourself to stack off with your stack size when you do 4! pre. And if that makes you uncomfortable on this type of board, then maybe you size the 4! larger so the decision is easier. I prefer to get the highest value and am fine stacking off on any board, hence my suggestion of the smaller size.
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Old 05-18-2018, 03:41 PM   #25
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Re: 2/5 - AA 200bbs deep

Some things we need to consider are:
1. Do you think that the TAGfish jams $700 here with AK often?
2. Do you think that the TAGfish never has AQo, AJs or ATs here?
3. Does either player have KK very often when there is no 5bet pre?
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