1. Yes. Especially AK. And I only included two AK so even if yo u take them out, it is still a call.
2. No, he might have these. BUT I was trying to use a very conservative range so that the point was made. Obviously if you include any of these combos, it is an EASIER call.
3. Yes. There are some players who, when more than 100 deep, will "want to see a flop without an Ace" to commit with KK so they dont 5!. A TAGfish would definitely be a player like that.

$400 pre & Jamming most flops - what a dream spot.

AP, calling. but it's not a great flop for us for obvious reasons.

What's with the talk of a "standard" 4bet being 5x? lmao

Next time please provide us with somewhat more extensive reads than just "winning TAG" and the enigmatic "TAGfish". You can do better than that!

Anyway, I'd 4bet to 240 and I don't particularly care if they'll both come along. We're not deep enough to not wanna auto-stack-off on practically any flop. Plus, with your LAG image, you want them to think you can still fold after you 4bet. (Actually, I always want my opponents to think that, no matter what my image is. Why would anyone ever wanna 4bet half their stack when their opponents are at least semi-decent?)

On the flop I'm not folding. Kudos if they're frontshoving sets or straights. I'm obviously not very happy with this flop, but laying this down seems criminal.

4! is too small 300 min
Call as played
Jam, flat and fold are bad

This is an optimal spot for 4 bet- you’ve got a TAG winner who threw bet you with probably a pretty narrow/capped range who might ship or at least take a flop, and you need to protect equity and get value from the fish....265-300 seems good

380 is what I was thinking. If 380, never folding on flop.

as played........... folding 80% of the time.

interesting range of advice ITT.

1. definitely 4b pre. your sizing was a little small. around $300 is optimal IMO. agree with the other poster that 5x is not a standard 4bet sizing here.

2. as played, i strongly disagree with people saying we're stacking off on virtually any flop. this is a spot where we can define ranges quite well/specifically. there are many flop textures we should not continue on with 2 customers.

3. careful with the use of TAGfish to describe this villain. true TAG traits are actually quite rare in 2/5 cash. tight/aggressive is a specific playbook that not many people play. Regfish may be a better description, although a small paragraph summary would be best.

4. this is often QQ or JJ and rarely TT in my opinion. think about the mentality v2 would have to have to donk shove 7 bills here with tens, not to mention he's less likely to play tens like this pre. it's not out of the question but this particular action in this particular scenario is much more often QQ or JJ. the way the action went, even bad players can smell it in the air that a semi-bluff shove is not gettnig through 2 players here. also given v2's preflop play, he shouldn't show up with KK very often here. we also have another player behind yet to act...because of all of this I think this is a fold.

i don't really agree with your line of thinking. jamming leaves a lot of value on the table IMO. the result is the same if KK is out, but not QQ, JJ, and AK. with 2 villains and the way the action went, we expect at least one of those 3 hands to be out fairly often. rather than worry about post, we should set our re-raise size at an amount that keeps those hands in. the best way to "deny them odds" is to not stack off on the right board textures. as better players, that should be our edge here.

for example, as mentioned above, i fold in this spot.

keep in mind v2 cold flatted the 3bet first

Many rec players call too wide on the first 3!, and by sizing to 250 you've virtually guaranteed V2 calls the same range to a 4! since he's closing the action. In this particular room, a royal flush jackpot has a significant impact on rec 3! calling ranges. Tx and hh combos that called 3! for some bizarro reason, then got trapped in the hand are some non-zero% also.

Based on above, I'd construct V2 donk-jam range as follows:

Highly likely: QJs AJhh AKhh AThh JThh TT KK
Likely: 99 JJ QQ KTs (V2 will x/gii often rather than gii)
Less likely: JTs, AKo-AKs, 88, AA
Non-zero: other hh, other Tx

On the fly, I'd put you at around 40% v that range.

V1 range has less of the paint, significantly more JJ+AK. Certain regs at Crown can be wider tho.

pre-flop reads as to how easily each V called the 3! and 4! are important. such reads are generally super reliable, as opposed to post-flop where regs and recs alike are more adept at feigning interest/disinterest and other fake tells. they love to 'fool you' post-flop and forget that the hand started 60 seconds earlier.

It's still a call though. chuck in the remaining 700 to win 1450 as around a 40% underdog. If V1 calls then it's 700 to win 2850, but at that point you're almost certainly drawing to 2 outs or less.

Decisions would be easier if it was 650 to win 1550 (or 2200), but not much. The key point is that by sizing to 250 we leave all suited paint in V2 range.

typo

So how much value? Say the flop comes out with just rags giving QQ,JJ, an over pair and A,K overcards. How often do you expect those hands to stack off when all the cards are out? For instance an Ace is going to kill the action against KK,QQ, JJ as an Ace is going to come on the flop a certain percentage. My point is that analyzing the EV is pretty complicated and can change a lot based on assumptions.

To me, jamming on a 4B at worst doesn't seem like a huge error. Playing as you advocated is fine but it does leave hero open to making a huge error especially if hero's reads aren't that solid.

ya it's not a huge error. i mean, it's certainly simpler to just jam pre. and keeping those hands in requires us to make harder decisions post. but there are so many times QQ will flat and then not be able to fold post given how much $ is in the pot when the board comes undercards. in those scenarios, villains have to give us credit for specifically KK or AA. 2/5 villains don't like doing that.

i don't think analyzing the EV is that complicated. even if we're not playing amazingly post flop, the overlay we get from keeping QQ, JJ, AK in when we have AA is huge. any argument that jamming $1k EFF over a $85 3bet is OK because well lots of flops are tricky is deeply flawed in my opinion.

If I was going to jam $1K preflop it wouldnt be because lots of flops are tricky. It would be because nobody does that with AA, which means you will get called a lot lighter than you should for 200BBs. When you 4 bet to something like $280-325 its glaringly obvious you have AA/KK.

People 4 bet shove AK a lot more often than AA in spots like this. Ive made moves like this and gotten called by JJ/TT and then told "that was the bottom of my calling range". They say it like my all in was stupid and I just got lucky that they had a hand to call with. It really makes my chuckle.

So while the medium sized 4 bet is the "by the book" play, I could easily argue that shoving is higher EV overall when you consider how many flops villains wont be able to continue on and how surprisingly lite people will call the 4 bet shove with assuming it means you dont want a call.

Good posts man. Also as you mention in bolded, jamming 1K over a 85 3 bet with AA is so lol bad for a myriad of obvious reasons, that i hopefully doesnt need to use time to write it all out.

Last time I was in a very similar hand to this, the guy 4 bet shoved all in for $1000 and had A4s. It will almost never be AA so like I said, you will get called lite, so I can easily argue that its not lol bad at all.

In any game I've ever played almost any non-****** is gonna fold JJ, QQ and AK to a 1k 4bet jam by a non-****** over an 85 3bet, provided the gameflow is "normal". Sure, they will tank and sigh but ultimately they will fold.

In a crazy game with a crazy dynamic, it's a different story. Against certain players, it's also a different story. But in general I don't think they will look you up light because they put you on AK. And even if they do put you on AK, they mostly just don't want to gamble for so much money with their underpair.

Yes, occasionally you will get called light and some villains will raise their eyebrows of an overbet shove like this- but overall its no doubt youre losing value big time from all the herofolds you are gonnna get from hands like 99-1010-JJ and for some villains even QQ and AK sigh folding not wanting to stick in 200 beebers pre.

The single worst thing by jamming is that we take away one of the biggest chances for villain to make a huge mistake for stacks: because we remove the chance of villain jamming with worse hands. He cant do that obviously when we lock him up in a corner with no escape routes. If we 4 bet to a smaller size like $250 or $300, villain can get the chance to "put us on AK" and jam it in himself (with percieved fold equity on the jam) with hands like 1010-JJ and AK for example, hands that might very well sigh fold to an overbet jam from hero.

To overship 1K here over a 85 3 bet with AA and that being a remotely good play, we need to have a rarely very spesific villain+spesific dynamic that we want to exploit in massive fashion.

+1

if I find myself in a gambooly game where people are calling a jam like that light with any kind of frequency, I'm 100% jamming. We don't disagree on theory, I just don't see that as often as you do perhaps. every time i think to myself that my betting pattern is telegraphing my hand, someone looks me up and I have to reality check myself that most people just can't look over the top of the two pretty cards in front of their face.

Results:

i would definitely be expanding my notes on V1 after that. 3b/calling pre with ATs is not entirely standard for a "winning TAG". once he does that though the donk shove makes sense. i would have folded.

This was V2 (the TAGfish) that cold-called a 3bet then called a 4bet then donk jammed the flop with AThh.

I don't know what V1 (winning TAG reg) had, but I'll wager that he had either AK or AQ.

For the record, Im not saying shoving the AA preflop is the best play. I'm just saying Its not as bad as it seems in some circumstances.

Also, not a single time have I had anyone 5 bet jam 200BBs on me with AK or a smaller pp, so Im not really buying that a 4 bet to $280-$300 is better because of that alone.

The only times Ive gotten 150BBs+ all in preflop is when I shoved it in myself in a weird spot and they didnt believe me.

Even though it has not happend to you yet, doesent mean its not an important argument due to different samplesizes and locations.

The main point though is to give villains the best conditions to make mistakes with a bigger and more complexe decision tree, and stick around in the hand with the widest range possible. Either as a 4 bet flat, or a 5 bet jam. That is not achieved by jamming 1000 bucks over an 85 3 bet. That is how scared money nits and the worst OMC play their ultra premiums (wich causes their range to be even more lol weighted to only AA when doing this move of course), only to have people folding QQ and AK faceup to them and laughing about the overplay wich gets them a huge amount of big hero folds.

I get your point of getting action this way with a spesific dynamic/spesific villains prone to make these kind of big calls as non believers, but that being said if you take this line too often my estimate is that you are losing alot of value by doing so.

Ok, given spoiler see my post again

And look me up next time I’m in room

WD on this hand, call was correct

4bet to $285. Flop is a fold with V1 left to act behind.