Been at the table for about 3 hours, running decent. Hero is MAWG with TAG image.

Villain 1, young Asian kid. We've battled at little this session, mostly him raising my c-bet and me folding out. 3 times I've had decent hands, and he's check raised me $100 on the flop. He's pretty quiet otherwise, so I've given him credit, since we're both deep.

Villain 2 is new to the table, unknown Hispanic man. Seems a little nervous, so not sure if he's comfortable with 2/5.

On to the hand.

Hero is in CO with 77

EP raise to $20 ($~500)
V2 calls (~$470)
Hero calls (~$2300)
BTN calls (~$900)
V1 calls from BB (~$1100)

Flop is 79T

EP checks
V2 checks

Hero bets $75

BTN starts to carve out a raise to ~$225, but V1 acts out of turn and raises to $175. BTN decides to fold, V1's raise stands. EP folds. V2 re-raises AI.

Hero?

I can't make up my mind if this is a really disgusting spot, or if it's a standard fold. I don't like this board with bottom set, especially MW and playing deep. Is a fold MUBS?

possibly a call against v1 (who seems to be making a living off your cbets) - but with V2 in there and re-opening it - doesn't seem tenable.

The worst hand V2 does this with for value is probably T9, and many wouldn't even jam that hand. Against his range as a whole (basically sets and straights, as it seems like he isn't capable of semi-bluffing or air-ball-bluffing here) we don't have good equity, and also considering we would be calling off half the effective stack with v1, seems like we must bet-fold in this spot.

This would be a snap call against V1 (possibly a raise but it's probably better to keep in his entire range and let him fire turn). He c/r us so often that if we fold to him with bottom set then we're folding almost everything and we should cash out.

V2 complicates things but it's so unlikely he has J8 for the nuts. He could have 86, but then that means he could have 97, 98, 78, T8, T9, A8...maybe even an overplayed JT, AT, JJ or QQ. He could obviously have a better set, but at least his stack is under 100 BB.

So if we're never folding vs V1 and V2 has a wide range, then I think we have to either call and keep V1 in with his wide c/r range, or shove and hope to isolate V2.

How do we know this?

Do NOT fold. You're just 200ish bbs eff with V1, the pot is now ~$800, and you need to shove. Even if V1 folds and V2 has 68 you're fine, but V2 has a lot of other hands as well.
As for V1, this isn't HU, so he should be stronger than he may have been in the earlier hands. But still when there is a ck-shove, bet-reshove, and he's faced with calling ~$900, he's going to have to fold a number of hands that normally would have enough equity to call you. I mean, I obviously doubt 99/TT/68 are folding, but it's at least possible sometimes when you shove.

yeah this ain't super deep and I'm never folding. I'd flat call and let V1 make a mistake.

Looks like we can make a great fold here. If your read of V2 is he's maybe playing close to vest/scared money then this is J8/99/TT all day. No one makes bluffs like this at standard 2/5 (All in over a bet and raise), so we can safely get away from it. Especially since you have no reason to believe V2 is aware that V1 may be raising light with T8/88 ect.

Its beat we have to waste a set but it is what it is, these folds make you a good player. In game I'd pitch it and not give much thought about it.

I'm not worried about V2 since he's short. V1 raised all your cbets, seems to think he owns you.

I hate folding. Both of them could easily do this with 2pair. The only problem is the jam opens up the betting again. I would hate to call and not charge him with a draw. I'm tempted to jam but don't wanna fold him out.

V2 is barely short...he's close enough to full that he's not an afterthought by any means.

V1 doesn't strike me as raising here with air. He's a bit laggy, but my read of him is that he's pretty solid post, and I don't expect him to ever get out of line here. Only showdown history I have with him is in a 3-way pot where he turned the wheel to my K-high flush. I over-flushed a 2nd villain who went AI ahead of me in that hand and V1 called with the nut redraw A. A couple of other hands I observed, his line made sense. I don't see what he's calling worse, so I think a shove would fold him out and I'm behind V2 all day.

So my real concern is him still having the action behind me, and I really have no idea where I am. He could me making his standard 'I own your soul' raise, but V2s action really mucks up the gears. These are the outcomes I can see:

1) Call, V1 calls behind me with a draw or 2p (best case scenario), where I pretty much end up breaking even on the side pot if I can fade his outs. And maybe I scoop the main to V2 overplay (wishful thinking, imo).
2) Call, V1 over-shoves. I think this action would narrow his range to straights and higher sets.
3) Fold. I'm a pussy, rack up my profits and go home.
4) Shove. I don't know if anything worse calls often enough to make it worthwhile.

What I mean is are you folding a set to $375

I'd probably feel most awful when V1 just overcalls 275/1175 and then shoves ~$600 into a dry pot on 689TJK turns. I mean, I'm just not folding 77 here under any circumstances so I'd want to at least give V1 an opportunity to make a bad call (or a bad fold perhaps) by shoving rather than giving him an opportunity to make a better call with his entire ck-r range when I flat...If that makes sense.

Id like to understand the rationale behind folding bottom set. I'm not auto stacking off with bottom set for 200bb on a whim, but things just aren't THAT narrow here and the pot is already huge. V2 could easily have a clown range here and V1 a lot of high equity hands that will fold to a shove.

V2 would have to be the worst kind of fish to take this line with any type of clown range. Given that my read is scared money, I lean heavily toward monsters. Maybe he thinks 2p or JJ+ is nutted here, but I'm not willing to discount his abilities that much just yet. Because of that, I don't know if I'm looking for V1 to fold any decent equity hand, but there's very little he can call. I fully expect that if I call, he either folds or shoves. Shoving means I'm likely way behind. Folding means I'm facing V2 HU, and I'm pretty sure I'm behind him right now, too. If my read of V2 was spastic/fishy, then I think a shove is pretty straight forward, but scared money doesn't play that way.

Behind, perhaps, but getting 2.13-1 at 2.03-1 against V2s TT-99, J8s, T9s, T7s, 97s, 86s. With a player behind, and facing a range this strong, I suppose I can see how you might begin to consider passing on a high variance spot that yields only a few BBs of profit. But I still contest that things are much wider than this, especially considering that V2 is not playing his range like an amateur when he checks the flop. Sure, he could check this range frequently, but I don't see how that correlates to removing pair+8 hands and some other stuff.

Not sure how many times I've called in this spot and been wrong every single time. With no flush draw out there, this is even more of a fold.


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I hear you. And this was actually my thought process in game. I was trying to find a fold because I knew anything else was extremely high variance, and I've been deliberately trying to remove those types of plays from my game due to insipid tilt issues (I either tilt off another BI after losing, or worse, if I win start trill seeking and opening up my range in stupid spots.) Ultimately, I tanked for a couple of minutes. I was at the end of my session, and decided I was cashing out with a profit either way, so tilt couldn't come into play. So I shoved.

I'm still not sure if I'm ok with that decision.

Because this.

It's funny because I was in this same exact spot few months ago with 77 on T97 (albeit with a fd) and the two Vs had J8 and 99 too, lol. Had that hand in mind when I replied too.


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but you guys had outs to the bbj though

yeah, that is a nasty spot. either V1 or V2 could have 68, probably not 8J.

the fact that V1 is check raising you here OOP is kind of wierd since most of the hands that he could be doing this with are drawing hands, not value hands.

I would muck it based off the strength of V2. V2 is going to show up with QJ, 68, 9T, 99, and TT almost all the time. V1's check raise is pretty odd since he is committed to donking almost all of the turns versus whatever you are holding.

Too bad V2 is in there, because you have V1 right where you want him.

note*

220 BB is not super deep. It is not even deep. 300 BB is deep. 600+ BB is super deep.

Assuming V2 is not in the hand and V1 is making a move on you with some kind of drawing hand, like QJ or 89. After you call the 175, the pot is 450 on the turn and V1 has 920 left. Let's say the turn is a brick, 2, and V1 fires out 300 on the turn. You call. The pot is 1050 and he has about 600 left. River is a brick, 3, and V1 shoves for his last 600, and you maybe call or fold, it really doesn't matter. The point is that being 220 BB deep barely gives V1 room to make 3 moves on the pot. One on each street. Deep stack poker implies that you are deep enough to 4 or 5 moves against your opponent to win a pot. You can see that 220 BB is only deep enough to make average size bets on each street and there is not even enough room for you to make a rebluff on any of the streets without V1 either snap calling allin or folding.