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Old 03-19-2019, 11:25 AM   #1
XtraScratch8
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2/5 7-9ss in MP

Main V is MABG. Iíve heard that heís sticky, but I havenít played more than a few orbits with him, he recently joined the table on the seat to my right. Seems competent, but a bit on the loose side preflop. Havenít seen how he reacts to big pots yet. Nice guy, seems like a thinking player, but doesnít worry me on first impressions. Strikes me as a rec player. He has about $1300 that he brought from a table that just broke.

Side V is MAWG who I also havenít played with a lot, but have heard heís on the loose side, and over-bluffs. Plays a super wide range preflop.

Hero is TAGish winning reg, but a relative stranger to main V and side V. Hero has had a pretty quiet session to this point, canít get much going, but is breaking even so far several hours in. Iím sitting at $500-ish.

Main V opens $25 UTG+2, Hero calls 7-9ss in MP (I know this is a bit spewy/optimistic, but this hand was looking good compared to much of what Iíd been seeing, I rarely call this hand in this spot.), SB calls, BB calls.

Flop 9d - 6s - 5h

Blinds check, Main V bets $60 (his larger sizing makes me think heís relatively weak here, Iíd seen him size bigger OTF a few times when he had mediocre hands, even multiway), I call, SB calls, BB folds.

Turn - As

SB checks, Main V checks, I decide to go $125 because I really donít see an Ace from either V checking to me here, and my impression is that shoving lots of rivers here will be profitable, whether I brick or bink. I pick up a lot of backdoor equity on this turn and I donít believe an ace is out there, perfect semi-bluff turn card imo.
SB takes a minute and calls, Main V calls after a short tank.

River - 6d

SB checks, Main V checks, I shove remaining $290-ish. SB folds, V goes into the tank...

Thoughts?
Is there merit to checking back this river with my SDV? Or is my original plan of shoving better?
(I personally like the shove on this specific river best after thinking more on it this morning)
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Old 03-19-2019, 11:27 AM   #2
XtraScratch8
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Re: 2/5 7-9ss in MP

Also, what do you range V on?
Pot is $650-ish after the turn.
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Old 03-19-2019, 11:59 AM   #3
johnnyBuz
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Re: 2/5 7-9ss in MP

Pre is obviously a big leak.

Turn I would either check back or shove if you're confident neither has an ace.
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Old 03-19-2019, 12:09 PM   #4
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Re: 2/5 7-9ss in MP

Don't want to be harsh but... this whole hand is button clicking. Every action you take is merged value/bluff/protection garbage.

Fold pre. AP call flop. AP check turn. AP check river vs two opponents as your bet isn't big enough to push people off better hands.
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Old 03-19-2019, 12:11 PM   #5
XtraScratch8
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Re: 2/5 7-9ss in MP

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Originally Posted by johnnyBuz View Post
Pre is obviously a big leak.

Turn I would either check back or shove if you're confident neither has an ace.
Not disputing pre is leaky, I said that myself.
However, there was only one player on my left who I was legitimately worried about squeezing and if he did I just fold 100%.
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Old 03-19-2019, 12:17 PM   #6
XtraScratch8
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Re: 2/5 7-9ss in MP

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Originally Posted by MogFish View Post
Don't want to be harsh but... this whole hand is button clicking. Every action you take is merged value/bluff/protection garbage.

Fold pre. AP call flop. AP check turn. AP check river vs two opponents as your bet isn't big enough to push people off better hands.
Iím not worried about you being harsh sir.
I donít think itís as bad as you think and thatís fine.
In my game, a nearly $300 river bet is a big bet even when the pot is $650.
The turn is risky, but calling it button clicking is a little overkill.
I intentionally left a decent river bullet behind.
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Old 03-19-2019, 12:25 PM   #7
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Re: 2/5 7-9ss in MP

You have to be extremely good to play these types of hands even in position. Perhaps you are. That said, I think it's better to have very good reads on your Vs before attempting fancy moves like this, since a lot of your value here is positional FE.

AP: I prefer a flop raise in position as c-bet from main V is likely overpair or AK-AJs and blinds have checked. Since board favors blinds' range, their passivity seems like a green light for you here. Since you flatted, sb has come along which I don't think is good for you.

Flop aggression is better than repping Ace on turn, as main V has way more Aces in his range. I think you need a better read on Vs to do this. I'd check behind on turn.

River jam offers main V 3-1 on a call! This is why I don't like your turn bet. You don't have enough behind to bet him off any Ace now that the board has paired.
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Old 03-19-2019, 12:31 PM   #8
XtraScratch8
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Re: 2/5 7-9ss in MP

Here’s another thing worth noting: I expected Main V to call, but not SB too. When SB called I put him on a hand similar to my own. A spade would have been bad for my as I’m pretty sure that’s what SB had. If only Main V called as expected the river SPR is much different. Main V does not have an ace here. Very confident SB didn’t either.
My live read had me very confident of that.
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Old 03-19-2019, 01:02 PM   #9
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Re: 2/5 7-9ss in MP

Quote:
Originally Posted by XtraScratch8 View Post
Not disputing pre is leaky, I said that myself.
However, there was only one player on my left who I was legitimately worried about squeezing and if he did I just fold 100%.
It's not just about getting squeezed. Calling 5x raises with suited gappers 100 BB's effective with the worst relative position is just going to be -EV in the long run. You're not going to flop well enough and every squeeze pre or x/r post obliterates whatever marginal EV you manage to squeak out elsewhere HU.
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Old 03-19-2019, 01:16 PM   #10
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Re: 2/5 7-9ss in MP

For sure. True and fair. Again, not disputing pre being leaky. I had folded around like 3+ orbits since the new V’s sat and witnessed some very leaky post flop play by new players 200+ bb’s deep. Theoretically, I get that I should fold pre here.
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Old 03-19-2019, 01:27 PM   #11
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Re: 2/5 7-9ss in MP

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Originally Posted by Spanishmoon View Post
You have to be extremely good to play these types of hands even in position. Perhaps you are. That said, I think it's better to have very good reads on your Vs before attempting fancy moves like this, since a lot of your value here is positional FE.

AP: I prefer a flop raise in position as c-bet from main V is likely overpair or AK-AJs and blinds have checked. Since board favors blinds' range, their passivity seems like a green light for you here. Since you flatted, sb has come along which I don't think is good for you.
.
Your first point here is definitely a good one and I felt that way after I shoved river. I could have picked a better V to do this to, but once he tanked for a couple minutes I knew that my shove was the right move AP, because if he has a tough decision here, shoving is worth it.
Yes, he gets about 3:1, but if I get him to fold better or chops almost ever shoving makes a lot of sense and the river pairing the board is actually a pretty great card for me. Remember, your bluff/call down odds math works both ways.

I donít agree with your flop raise idea though, if I was deeper, yeah, I can see that. But thereís a lot of turns that I wouldnít have taken this line with.
If I raise flop, Iíll be forced to either shove turn (without knowing itís the ace of spades), OR check turn and be left guessing on the river.
The thing I like about the turn bet is that it will get the river checked to me in last position so frequently.
Also, if I raise flop Iím totally guessing/hoping that SB and BB donít have better than me.

Part of what was interesting to me about this hand was how critical position is and how quickly pre mistakes can lead to dicey situations.
Also, semi-bluffing with equity is hella fun.
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Old 03-19-2019, 02:23 PM   #12
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Re: 2/5 7-9ss in MP

I mean if were trying to rep 78 here we can't raise flop.

It's nut hand with no flush draw. We'd always flat 78 here.

You played the hand well, this would of worked if you were deeper and had a 500$ jam for the river.

For that reason stay away from these hands unless 200bb deep minimum. Unless you can get in for a limp.

100bb deep we want to play premium hands to build our stack up with easy decisions.
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Old 03-19-2019, 02:28 PM   #13
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Re: 2/5 7-9ss in MP

Don't like pre-flop as you're not really deep enough to play this imo. I probably just take my free card on the turn because as I said you're not really deep enough to generate a lot of FE here, and I think you're nearly always getting called on the river.
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Old 03-19-2019, 04:37 PM   #14
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Re: 2/5 7-9ss in MP

If you're calling 97s pre this shallow then you have to shove turn. You want to gamble, so gamble and gamble well. Fits your range pretty well, not repping an Ace, but rather an array of 2p, sets, straights and spades.
Also might consider 3b pre if deeper, then you have some bet bet bets. AP, real real bad turn sizing - check (or shove) as JB/Sabr said.
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Old 03-19-2019, 04:52 PM   #15
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Re: 2/5 7-9ss in MP

As others have said, you are nowhere near deep enough to consider playing this pre. And hey, we all have siad "Yeah I know, but just this once for reasons x,y,z blah blah." I get it, but when a decent win rate at 2/5 is between $35-$50 an hour, this "once" just cost you between 30 minutes and 45 minutes of earn.

My problem with it is that it is unlikely we can rep a boat/str8 on the river given how we played the hand. Reason being is our sizing on the turn is too small ($120 into $280 if my math is correct). Given the board texture (str8 draw and BD flush draw), we would likely bet a much larger amount with a set/flopped str8 OTT. So, when we get to the river, we can really only rep one combo of 65 (65) and I doubt we are playing 96ss for a raise pre. It is also unlikely we have 6x, as 86ss and 76ss dont bet the turn. So there just aren't that many value hands in our range to rep which should lead Villan to think we have more bluffs in our hand than not.

I think shoving the turn would be best with our equity a we rep more value hands at that point, we have the maximum amount of FE with that sizing, and we are ok if called since we have a ton of draw equity to 2P+/str8/flush.
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Old 03-19-2019, 05:18 PM   #16
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Re: 2/5 7-9ss in MP

Grunch.

You're not deep enough to play this in MP. Fold pre. As played call flop. Check turn. Check river. If you were going to do anything other than check turn, then you must size bigger, ranging from 3/4 pot ($210) to a shove. "This looked better than what I have been seeing" is not a reason to play this hand. You either always play this hand or you don't, and you're not deep enough to play in MP to a raise. You might have picked up AA the very next hand. Fold pre.
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Old 03-19-2019, 05:23 PM   #17
Spanishmoon
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Re: 2/5 7-9ss in MP

I guess I’m still hung up on trying to play this turn against two Vs! It’s too complex and SB has such a wide range.

I still prefer raising flop to isolate one V and create more options for H on the turn with H in position. AP, H is repping a far narrower range than Vs who are still in the hand. It’s spew I think.

Perhaps H managed to MacGuyver his way out of this gross spot. But he offered 3-1 to TWO Vs on river. It’s hard enough to beat one.
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Old 03-19-2019, 05:33 PM   #18
RottPhiler
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Re: 2/5 7-9ss in MP

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Originally Posted by Spanishmoon View Post
I still prefer raising flop to isolate one V and create more options for H on the turn with H in position. AP, H is repping a far narrower range than Vs who are still in the hand. Itís spew I think.

Perhaps H managed to MacGuyver his way out of this gross spot. But he offered 3-1 to TWO Vs on river. Itís hard enough to beat one.
Raising the flop is only going to ensure a 3-bet by TT+ from competent players. The turn is a great card to semi-bluff, as KK- will now be scared. You're in essence repping an Ace that floated the flop now.
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Old 03-19-2019, 05:56 PM   #19
XtraScratch8
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Re: 2/5 7-9ss in MP

Quote:
Originally Posted by XtraScratch8 View Post

Part of what was interesting to me about this hand was how critical position is and how quickly pre mistakes can lead to dicey situations.
Look, I get that I didnít play this hand perfectly.
I get that this is a fold pre at 100 bb, I said so in OP.
What would be interesting about only posting hands that I think I played perfectly? Iím simply explaining my thought process as the hand happened.
This was the most interesting hand I played from a pretty loose and fun game.
I appreciate the feedback, especially from a few posters who I was hoping to hear from. I was able to run it up pretty good after this hand and this weird hand was +EV in table image.
Shoving turn makes most sense, I agree. I think I like that better than checking personally.
AP, V tank called and mucked. I assume he had 88.
So the trainwreck worked in the end.
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Old 03-19-2019, 06:00 PM   #20
XtraScratch8
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Re: 2/5 7-9ss in MP

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spanishmoon View Post
I guess Iím still hung up on trying to play this turn against two Vs! Itís too complex and SB has such a wide range.

I still prefer raising flop to isolate one V and create more options for H on the turn with H in position. AP, H is repping a far narrower range than Vs who are still in the hand. Itís spew I think.

Perhaps H managed to MacGuyver his way out of this gross spot. But he offered 3-1 to TWO Vs on river. Itís hard enough to beat one.
There were four players on the flop, not three.
Raising flop does not make sense here to me at all.
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Old 03-19-2019, 06:02 PM   #21
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Re: 2/5 7-9ss in MP

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Originally Posted by RottPhiler View Post
Raising the flop is only going to ensure a 3-bet by TT+ from competent players. The turn is a great card to semi-bluff, as KK- will now be scared. You're in essence repping an Ace that floated the flop now.
This is post hoc reasoning, WADR. Agree the turn Ace resulted in a viable semi-bluff when x x to Hero. H obviously leads a charmed life. SB has plenty of Axs he could have flatted one pair with preflop or floated with gutshot/bdfd.

However, the turn could have just as easily been a brick that hit SB's range hard. Then what? We face two Vs with relatively undefined ranges. For all we know, SB could have led a brick turn! He's flatted twice with something ffs.

If the main V 3b H flop raise, we can always fold relatively cheaply, or float along with V having defined his hand. Instead we're up on a high wire with 2 Vs with relatively undefined ranges.

If he flats our flop raise, we define his range much better and maybe the SB folds, creating equity for us.

AP, H has put 200 into a pot and learned very little about V's ranges in the process. He ostensibly gets bailed out on river by the poker gods when the board pairs. AP, he's still repping a narrow range and offering 3-1 on the call to 2 V's.

If this is your brand of vodka, great. But it's not for me. I admit I'm not good enough to play at this level of complexity.
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Old 03-19-2019, 06:23 PM   #22
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Re: 2/5 7-9ss in MP

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Originally Posted by XtraScratch8 View Post
There were four players on the flop, not three.
Raising flop does not make sense here to me at all.
With 4, raising makes even more sense. Deny worse draws and other one-pair combos the correct price behind you. Evaluate if re-raised. Your gambling here with this hand you chose to play, so gamble. Raising 60 on the flop is better than jamming 125 in on the turn.

I admire your guts and I think you improvised brilliantly. But you have to admit the runout was the best runout that didn't improve your hand and we still don't know yet if you won. You got to river offering 2 Vs 3-1 on your jam. No, gracias! Not for me.

PS: I'm glad you won! Great courage. Imagine the fireworks if you hit your straight

Last edited by Spanishmoon; 03-19-2019 at 06:27 PM. Reason: results
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Old 03-19-2019, 06:44 PM   #23
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Re: 2/5 7-9ss in MP

Id fold preflop also, but would probably call preflop if the raise was $20 and was coming from a player I don't think is good (and most arent)....so if we chock up preflop to "sub optimal but not horrible"

Id say you played the rest of the hand very well. You dont call raises with these suited connectors or gappers just trying to hit big hands. Not at these stack depths. But you can do it profitably if you play well post flop and Id say you played well post flop. NH.
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Old 03-19-2019, 07:51 PM   #24
XtraScratch8
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Re: 2/5 7-9ss in MP

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spanishmoon View Post
H obviously leads a charmed life.
H has factually been rivered on big pots after getting it in well ahead 9 of the last 10 times he has picked up AA or KK.
H found it ironic given the circumstances of late that this was what it took to win a sizeable pot.
H thinks he found out plenty of info after committing 200 by the river, doesnít think heís a poker genius, but has probably played a million hands+.
Thereís some better players than me here, and I was curious what their thoughts were.
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Old 03-19-2019, 07:56 PM   #25
Avaritia
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Re: 2/5 7-9ss in MP

Bluffing and getting called by worse is the greatest feeling in the world.

Op, suited gappers are a huge leak in general. This is coming from someone who gets more excited to see 75s than AA.
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