2/5 NL 9-handed

Hero and Villain both with about 1200 and are older players. Hero is more aggressive and a thinking player. Villain is ABC (and typically passive) and running good, based on playing with him a couple hours. Reason for post is related to what happens on the river. My river play was criticized by a young and successful (former) internet player who I’ve played with several times - we talk hand histories and strategy. He has a substantially more advanced view of the game than me.

Hero UTG+2 $20 raise (always open for this amount) w 3d3s and Villain to immediate left calls. Everyone else folds.

Flop Jd 5c 8c and Hero bets $35 and is called (pot is now about 110 taking out rake and drop for high hand)

Turn is 2h and Hero bets $55 and is called (pot is now 220).

I’m thinking that Villain is on a flush draw. He’s chased and hit before. I try not to play afraid of a flush at this point and I'm not going to over-bet heads-up to push him off his draw. I'd make this bet with a ton of hands including bluffs. If he has a big hand he would have raised. He wouldn’t raise w Ac5c or Ac8c, or any other big flush draw. If he has a jack he’ll call me down depending on the river. I’m thinking value and that if a club doesn’t come on the river I’m going to fire a third bullet and take down the pot. I have showed bluffs and big hands this session.

If a club comes then I'll make a value-sized bet and fold to a re-raise or show the bluff when he calls. I play it this way with a big hand so I'm thinking that I have to play it the same way now. I can be stubborn in this situation and feel like if I check the river on a club then I'm too exploitable. I'd rather lead out than hero call his river bet or fold.

River is Jh (board is Jd 5c 8c 2h Jh)

Action to me and I… (what would you do and why, please)

i don't doubt that you're a "thinking" player. just seem to have a bunch of flaws in your thought process...along with too many really basic basic thoughts.

that's what I think anyway hah.

On the river, Plan A would be to go back in time and check / fold the flop. If I couldn't do that, I'd check fold now.

edit:
oh..forgot the "and why" part to your question. Because you put him on a Jack or a flush draw. you don't seem to think he'll be bluffing a missed flush draw. so a bet from him is a made hand...So I'd fold

grunch--- if you really think he has a frush draw i guess we can ck/call.... otherwise i suppose we can bet small and try to continue telling our story of having a jack but he might get real curious now that the board has paired... or we go big and think his range is capped at 2nd pair type hands and frush draws on the turn so we bet pottish now and hope to move him off....

i think great players would bet big here and try to move him off is 2nd pair or pair fd type hands but id be worried i look polarized to airballs/nuts and prob ck and hope he bricked his fd

ck and call something small?

I guess not much interest these days. Or just a boring hand. Anyway, I led out on the river for $75 to get him off anything marginal. The flush didn't come and with the second Jack I thought it would be unlikely he was holding one too. He folded.

My smarter poker friend said that I should have checked to induce a bluff. That way, I get an extra bet out of the Villain. I'm pretty sure that the Villain would have checked back and my 33 takes it down or I lose to a pair of eights or fives that were part of his flush draw. If Villain bets small it's a relatively easy call. If he bets large, not an easy call.

What do I think the Villain thinks I have? If he missed his flush draw he's done and not thinking his fives or eights are good. Sure, my range is polarized and that might get him sniffing around to make a call, but I just didn't see him as that type of player. Aggression works here, until it doesn't. At least, that's what I was thinking.

im c/f on this turn and river with this hand oop against decent player

just don´t cbet imo, this board hits a callers range all over the place. if you opt to cbet imo, be prepared to fire 3barrels to get him off enough to justify this. i dont like the sizing of your barrels, but i dont like barreling with this hand in this position with this board in general.

I fold preflop. Given the open, flop is ok a little on the big side. Think I like 25, turn is ok, river bet is a little small and won't fold out anything that has us beat. You're not polarized at all with the small river bet, not sure where u get that idea from

I think there are several flaws in your thinking in this hand:

Firstly I'm unsure how you think V can have both a 5 or an 8 and a FD, the 5 and 8 are of clubs right?

You don't have to bet so much OTF. You're heads up with V who is a passive ABC. He's either calling or he's not. You have terrible equity vs his continuing range and are OOP. Save yourself $10 or so when he calls and bet smaller ~25. Against anyone decent just c/f flop.

It's far more likely V has a J or a FD than he has a 5 or an 8 by the river. If your plan is to fold out a 5 or an 8 why don't you bet larger on the turn rather than betting small turn + river?

You bet half pot OTT, the player has to call 55 to win 165. You're laying out 3:1 odds on a call. Just a naked flush draw range has 2:1 odds of being the winning hand by the river, so you should be worried about it. Adding in J's and other holdings and your opponent has even better odds. Betting this small achieves nothing except give your opponent excellent odds on a call and is a big mistake in this hand.

If V is particularly sticky if he hits pairs OTR or cannot fold TP weak-good kicker I think betting turn is also a mistake. C/f. And it would be the way I'd play this hand.

Betting the turn and not river is a mistake, as his flop continuing range has so much equity vs your hand, when you bet the turn it is a bluff and nothing more. If you're going to bet turn you're going to have to triple barrel almost all non club rivers.

However, THIS particular river you should not bet and it serves absolutely no purpose. Any J will call you. Any 5 or 8 or underpair will not fold, they would not call the turn to fold their nut river. You beat all naked flush draws. Any player with showdown and calling OTT is calling this river, the only hands that were devalued are exactly 58 and overpairs, which an ABC player is unlikely to be holding IMO given the action. If V decides to raise you as a bluff you're probably folding.

As for the merit of c/c river, if V will bluff his FDs then you can call bets if given a good price, just expect to lose to a J more than win IMO.

I don't open with 33 in EP.

Also, if the guy is ABC poker, what do you think he's calling you with? It might be a flush draw and you're ahead, in which case a river bet is pointless. But it could also be a higher pp, Jx, A8 and you're just shoveling money this guy's way because he's going to call you to the end. Making a move like this OOP against a straightforward player whose calling you is almost always -EV.

In conclusion, don't open with 33 OOP.

I almost always cbet oop heads-up in pots I open. Against this Villain who plays passively, and chases a ton, I'm going to fire until I have evidence that I need to slow down, especially with my read that he was chasing the flush. If he has a Jack, I'll find out on the river.

Against better players, checking the river, I think, leaves me open to bluffs. So check/calling the river comes into play and the size of the bet by the Villain on the river matters. Does he value bet, over bet, or something in between? But against this player, I'd rather just bet out on the river. A larger bet on the river polarizes my range against better players, but not this guy. He's not thinking polarized. He's thinking, I missed my draw or I have a big hand.

Again, my my more sophisticated, deeper thinking poker friend, is over thinking this hand, IMHO, by recommending a check/call or check/raise on the river. He's giving Villain too much credit by assuming he will bluff. That was my read anyway on an older guy, playing ABC.

But that doesn't make any sense, villain doesn't have anything that you beat that will call you, and he will never fold anything that beats you.

C/R is bad vs this player as he will not value bet an 8 for you to be able to raise, and will not fold a weak J to a c/r. C/c is fine if he'll bluff a lot.

1 bullet c-bets are great vs ABC types, just don't get married to a bluff. You don't do that great vs FDs even on this favourable turn.

I agree that a C/R is bad on the river and C/C is okay if he bluffs, but I haven't seen him bluff. I just don't get my friend saying to C/C when he's not going to bluff, and when I think I'm good when he missed his draw. And you're right about the 5 and 8. I screwed up when I wrote that. Post-thinking too much. Also, remember that I'm an old guy so if I show a bluff, or 3 barrel with crap, it helps my table image.

Point taken about not getting married to bluffs against ABC players (except when I think that they are drawing).

c/c an ABC player on this river seems terrible...I know you want to convince yourself that he ONLY has a fl draw but I think a lot of 1 pair hands are in his range as well.

c-betting is ok-ish if player is fit or fold. Turn is terrible; sizing sucks.

If he doesn't bluff then c/f is clearly the only viable option. Sometimes even when you think you're good a lot of the time you still shouldn't bet. This is a classic example of it.

No offense, but as an old guy everyones going to automatically peg you as a nitty nut-peddler. There is no point showing bluffs, your table image will likely be almost exactly the same. Just take advantage of those who think you always have it when you show aggression.

You shouldn't "think they are drawing" and bet bet bet, it's just intuition. You gotta include other hands which make sense, all thats happened is you've bet large OTF. In this case there are a lot of one pair hands or better too. C/f turn is the best move.