HERO- young table image, sat for less than a hour, played 3-5 hands. Known by most of the players. Labeled tight (nit) but aggressive and bluffy. HERO initially bought 100bb but shortly after, bought in deep to cover 2 pretty bad players.

Villain- unorthodox player. Likes to do a lot of "same bets" which are usually weak. Very tight preflop. Has a lot of chips, idk how he got them but table talk implied he won a big hand.

HERO UTG ($3300) 33
V1 SB $3000

Preflop:

HERO opens for $20, 3 callers, V1 calls.

FLOP ($100): J53

HERO bets $60, 2 callers, V1 raises to $260, HERO raises to $600, others fold, V1 calls.

TURN ($1420): 8

V1 bets $500, HERO calls.

RIVER ($2420): K

V1 bets $500, HERO...

I will post the results and more details about the hand in my PG&C later:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh....php?t=1381809

But from just this info what did you guys think? I never been in a spot like this before. I wasn't sure if I'm fist pumping or made a fatal mistake.

by fatal mistake you mean re-raise?

Is the question flat vs. jam?

What do you range him on and what is he capable of calling you with?

Think it's a pretty clear flat, worse case scenario the weak "same bet" was some ******ed Jx or QQ that is never calling a jam anyway, best case he actually has JJ/55 and failed to stack us on a dry set over set flop...granted we are quite deep.

But yea I mean def never folding if that's the question.

Only real fatal mistake would be shoving all in over the top wih bottom set this deep. I can only see 55 beating you as JJ wouldn't be worried about much of anything on this board except KK. I say the river is a question of min raising or calling. You did say his same bets were weak but how reliable is that tell really. If its reliable I like a min raise for value but if he comes over the top you may have to fold. You could play it safe and just call as you never know what he could have.

Just flatting here on the river....unless he's a completely horrific player, I don't see what he'll call a raise with that you beat. Never folding though....

I wasn't sure, but I was thinking my potential mistake area was raising the flop like I did because then I allow for the stacks to get in (which I generally want with a set obv, but on this board what do I beat as played).

And yes reraising on the river was my. Other question spot.

Flat river and get shown 55

I'm flatting the river as I don't see him calling with much we beat (KJ) being the only exception.

I might not 3bet the flop here if we were heads-up, but slowplaying on the flop allows the two callers in between to come in with their straight draws and whatnot, and our hand will be too good to fold on any turn. So we need to raise on the flop. (Although you don't say how deep the other callers are--maybe if they are shallow it would be OK to let them in.)

On the river, if your read is that "same bet" is usually weak, maybe minraising is the way to go. But that means you'd have to fold to a shove getting great pot odds. If you don't want to do that, then maybe just calling is best.

flat river. your hand is too strong to fold, to weak to stack off for heaps

snap call, nh gg

Just curious, what range of hands do you think villain can have that calls your flop 3-bet on the world's driest board???

Are you putting villain on a ******edly played AA/KK/QQ type hand? Or do you think V is calling with AJ here?

This hand/line feels like Level 1 caveman poker: "Me haz strong hand must bet strong grrr...." without any thought of what your bets will do to villain's range.

THere are no real two pair combos in V's range other than minority 53s, J5s and J3s combos so what exactly does our betting do to villain's range?

As people have mentioned, flop 3b is so so bad.

You lose money when villain raise/folds some top pair type hand. You lose money every time villain has 55/JJ. You lose money when villain has air. You shut out the two other villains who are basically drawing dead.

As played call river cause you're getting 6-1 and be prepared to lose the majority of the time.

Someone with an open-ender is not drawing dead at all and could stack us on the turn. If we just call the flop, someone with an open-ender is being asked to call $200 to win $740 for immediate pot odds of 3.7:1, and we will be paying off on the turn. This is why the stack sizes of the other callers matters--if they are shallow then our reverse implied odds are limited and it may make sense to let them in.

Also, there's been a bet and two calls. Villain does not have air.

Definitely calling river here. I'm not folding here. Not after the weak turn bet and same sized, weaker river bet on this dry board. Fairly likely you're beat here with pocket 5s of Js but I still think this is a call for sure. He flatted the flop to a huge 3bet which implies some definite strength. JJ would value bet harder I assume, though you did say he was an unorthodox player. He might have 2pair here, maybe he calls PF with 53s. Think he lets go of AJ to the flop 3bet? I just can't imagine there's many weak to medium strength hands in his flop continuing range here. It's unlikely the turn 8 helps him and unlikely the K helps him in any way that beats us.

I included air for completeness. I realize it's a rare case. People do spew though.

Raising to protect against 46ss/24ss which make up pretty darn close to 0% of each player's range while letting them make an easy fold of AJ/KJ/QQ/etc seems like a terrible trade-off to me.

You have to think how to maximize against villains' whole ranges, not be weak-tight and win at all cost against the <5% of their ranges that are draws.

Both Villains had a little around $1200.

Then yeah, I would not let in anyone with 64. For one thing, this is deep enough that we have to include 64o and--depending on how loose they are pre flop--42s in both ranges. Imagine calling 200 more, getting a call behind you, seeing a 2 fall on the turn and facing a $450 turn bet without knowing whether you are about to pay off a made straight behind you? When you are paying off to the tune of $900+ offering over 8:1 in implied odds, it's not a good idea to let that happen. If it were something like $400 then a strong case could be made that we want to just call on the flop.

EDIT: If we allow all combos of 64, that's 16 combos. AJ/KJ/QJ is 36 combos. Not only do the straight draws account for almost 30% of the range of someone holding AJ/KJ/QJ/64, but there are two players, which means the probability that at least one of them has 64 is significantly higher (both by basic probability and by the fact that once one of them has Jx they block some of the other's combos of Jx). You have to really, really try to concoct a range that 64 isn't a significant part of.

call and vnh

Call as played. Flop 3bet is terribaddddd. I'll take my chances against an open ender. They only have 25% equity and you still have 23% if they bink turn. Whereas with top pair they are drawing basically dead.

Saw results. Villain played this hand even worse. Flats pre against multiple callers then he overplays his hand post flop. Still think flop is a flat of his check raise

Love the flop 3bet. We are 600BB's deep vs a live player (aka fish), we gotta start getting some money in there ASAP. I'm fine with calling turn/river since he's punting 100BB's per street, but just as you suspected this is always a pathetic attempt at pot control. He has something and probably in his twisted mind thinks he might even get you off AJ+. Really, he has no idea what he's doing, he just knows he has a pair and has to bet with it. So he flats 3bet and donks turn this weak? Makes no sense whatsoever. If he has the nuts he could just min4bet and know that you'll never fold. If he wants to get at least a little fancy he can hit it on the turn. This ******o 1/3 pot sized bet speaks volume of his intellect.

I was in a similar spot the other day and villain turned out to be a complete drooler turning 2 pair into a bluff without even realizing it. His logic? "There was already so much money out there I had to bet!" Probably what this guy is thinking right now. He's just auto-betting because he sees a ton of chips in the pot and feels guilty about checking it. Dont try to apply your rational common sense to him and ask questions about why he's doing it, he just is.

edit: and I havent seen results yet

edit2: ok I see results now, and I am not surprised in the slightest. I mean seriously this is just too standard for live players.

Always calling the river getting 6-1. There really is no other option imo. I'd expect to get shown 55/JJ here and there, but I think you'll see odd 2 pairs, badly played AA- KK, a missed draw here and there, and even the (super rare) spaz AJ more than the sets. You can't fold and raising seems to aggressive the way the hand has played out.

On the flop I like your raise. There's two players behind you that already called your initial cbet. Bottom set is strong but vulnerable multi way. Also, your ahead of V's range. I think you have to raise not only for value but to protect as well.

It's absurd to think that vill can only call a raise w/ 55+. Especially deep and having the initiative going to the turn. This is a live llnl player in the blind with 4 players already involved.

I'd also consider the fact that you raised UTG. Villain is probably discounting you holding 33 and 55. I think this lets him call wider, like slow played (KK AA) Plus he can easily have 64s, J5s, J3s, 35s, 24s closing the action in the blind w/ a bunch of callers already in.

Fwiw I think you have to discount JJ some based on vill's line. I think he'd be betting more/ trying to gii along the way. Assuming you called the river, I see nothing wrong w/ how you played this hand.

[spoiler] by the way LOL at him claiming he had AA. If he had AA he would have shown, to prove that you only beat him because you got lucky. He also would not describe his hand as just "1 pair", which means he fears as much as a single pair beating him. He mucked because he had AJ and was embarrassed that he got outplayed so badly[/spoiler]

I'd shove the river. Im terrible really deep.