$2/5, 10 handed

V raises to $15 in MP, Hero 3bets to $70, V calls

Flop ($147): Q79r
V shoves all-in for $130, Hero calls

V flips over 79s for 2 pair, turn and river blank out, V wins

Not being results oriented, but is 3betting this clown a mistake in the future when stacks are deeper?

Nope, wp.

You are being results orientated. You want someone with 97 calling your 3bets all day when you have AQ.

Not a mistake at all. Him calling with 97 here is like printing money (for us). We have an advantage in every area: hand strength, initiative, position, and skill.

Given stack sizes, we should be shoving all flops we miss. Him shoving makes it super easy for us to get away when we miss. If he flops 1 pair he is probably shoving anyway. If that is the case then the only times he stacks us is when we flop a pair and he hits better which is hard to do. I'd actually be giggling with joy if I was you and this hand just happened.

Ah okay lol, but what when stack sizes are deeper, I 3bet him, he calls and we miss? Are you cbetting into such a guy? Note that he can get tricky.

We are repping super strong like AA or KK when we 3bet big pre and fire on random flop. Villain is committing suicide if he wants to get tricky vs us. Cbet wins us the pot the vast majority of the time. Villain called to get lucky and if he doesn't he will eject.

True, so I get that a 3bet should be followed on a by a cbet even vs this V.

I hate 3-betting AQ at a 10-handed table against a relatively unknown V. If we're going to do it, then the hand should go down exactly how it went down.

Like Never Loses said, we pretty much have to shove our missed flops here, too, if he checks. If he hero calls with TT, then so be it. We'll value bet him to death in the future.

Assuming there were no callers after he raised 15 I think the 3bet sizing could be a little smaller to 45/50.

As others itt have touched upon we like it when they call with all of their wide range - we're not always tryin to fold them out pf. We make extra money post flop when they call trying to hit something (except in this hand obviously).

OP said opener is loose. AQ is an auto 3-bet versus a loose open for 40bb effective. It's a bummer man but this is standard.

Sorry, his PFR was $20 over a limper!

There are two types of super loose players imo.

A) Level 1 loose who just open and call super wide and stack off with anything no matter what the board is.

B) Level 2 loose who open and call super wide but read you for AK. They will stack off as long as no A or K is on the board.

IN the case of A) we can raise and 3-bet a strong range but we need to hit to continue post flop.

In the case of B) we should actually widen our 3-betting range considerably beyond big broadway hands. We will often be able to rep an Ace or a King because that is the hand they will put us on. So in effect, if we 3-bet with something like T9 we get the benefit of also being able to rep AK.

So when the board comes 9 6 3 and villain called our 3-bet with 65o we can burn him. Or if the board hits 8 6 2 and we c-bet and he calls. Turn is a 2 he checks we check back. River is a K he checks we bet he says, "Nice river" and folds

That's assuming you and your opponents are super deep. In this example, effective stacks are 40bbs. IMO best to nit up because the absolute strength of our hand matters more than implied odds.

nice hand. well played

I don't like the idea of 3betting 910, then why not 3bet ATC?

Of course, if someone will fold to 3bets without AA or KK, then it would make sense. But if they are going to be calling, are you ready to triple barrel bluff your stack away with 10 high

I would rather have something that has at least some flop equity.

This for starters.

Fizzy, you seem very eager to learn, which is definitely a good thing. However, this hand is so basic/standard I can't understand why you would post it, other than to complain about a bad beat (which we all do from time to time). Of course you played the hand 100% fine. Are you not sure if you played the hand correctly? There is not much to be learned from it other than reminding us that there still is players out there that are really this bad, which gives us all a little more hope. So, thanks for that.

both are +ev hands vs said player, why pick only certain ev+ hands? My 3 bet ranges open up so much more vs fish like this, esp in position.

If our villains are super loose bingo rec-fish then we can profitably 3-bet a wide range. Specifically, I'm talking about level 2 rec-fish who will put us on AK. Take a second and think about the ramifications of what I'm saying.

It's like you get to play hold em with 4 cards instead of 2. You can raise or 3-bet hands like T9, V calls with 74o because he puts you on AK. When we miss flop we can do a normal c-bet and V folds if he misses. But when V calls us, now we know we need to hit our hand or we can hit a phantom out A or K. This gives us so many ways to win, not to mention the value we get when we bink a 9 on a 9 6 2 r board and V has 76 and puts us on AK and hero calls us down...

T9s, 97s, 87s, JTs etc are hands that have decent flop equity especially when we are heads up in position vs a bingo rec-fish with a super wide 80% type range and who puts us on AK.

Now, i'm not advocating we become a raising and 3-betting machine pounding away every time V is in a hand and we are in position. We can be selective in picking and choosing our spots, paying attention to our image and maximizing our opportunities by selecting pots with lots of potential dead money in them.

Also, I needed to add we really want to be a minimum of 100bb deep when taking this approach. We need chips to maneuver post flop. Obviously you don't want to 3-bet V with T9s type hands when eff stacks are 40bb deep.

IN terms of frequency, I probably do the above about twice per three orbits on average which I find is a good frequency when mixed in with our other strong hands and general late position raises.

^^^ dgi, if you flop a 9 in the above scenario on 962 and you say you expect V to hero call you down putting you on AK, are you betting all 3 streets? Or checking turn for pot control and calling/betting river?

Don't want to speak for DGI but if I'm in that spot I'm betting for value all day errr day until such time I need to reevaluate. I may value own myself occasionally but against these specific villains I'm getting looked up by worse a lot.

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agreed DeathCabForTootie:

We can absolutely own our villains in these spots by betting 3 streets for pure value and getting called down by bottom and mid pair because "they put us on AK"

Once you identify these specific type of "thinking rec-fish" you can extract serious serious value. These rec-fish have a very specific and boiler plate way of thinking. Their minds are just incapable of putting the preflop raiser on ANY hand other than AK.

So you can absolutely own them and take them to value town when you raise with 98s+ and 97s+, A8s+, K9s+ and flop top pair.

the other benefit (although much rarer obviously) is when we flop two pair or straights and completely dominate our villains lessor straights and two pair hands. They will stack off 200bb+ all the while thinking they are "trapping us"...

This is one of the most lost opportunities in LLSNL. When eff stacks are 250bb+ we absolutely need to widen our raising range to include some SCs and S1Gs. We then raise and our villains will gladly call us with 75, 64, 85 type hands hoping they can flop gin on us. We then hit boards that villain is 100% sure missed us, boards like
Board) 7 4 9
Board) T 7 3
Board) J 9 7

but the reality is we have significant equity on those boards to include: TPMK, two pair, OESD, pair + SD, pair + SD + FD, pair + backdoor straight and flush draws. And best of all, our equity is 100% invisible to our villains because "they put us on AK" and so they feel safe calling down with bottom pair.

take a step back and truly understand the ramifications of this. Especially when we apply it to villains that have obvious betting and sizing tells and play their hands face up and are loose passives that never make moves and never bluff (vast majority of LLSNL players).

If done right, we can completely control the board post flop. We can blocking bet and set the price for our draws, we can value bet like a mofo, we can miss but then steal when an A or K hits on the river, we can nail a board and stack our villains for 200bb+ with hands that are invisible to them...

Also it puts our villains into positions to make mistakes.

one of the funniest things in LLSNL is that our villains 3-betting ranges are almost exclusively JJ+, AKs. In 1/2nl and 1/3nl and against the nits, OMCs, and so-called "solid" ABC players their 3-betting ranges are exclusively AA/KK like 90% of the time and AKs/QQ the other 10%.

So think about this. Game is 1/2nl eff stacks between you and several villains are $600. Typical raises at the table have been around $12 and you have been running the table. ABC rec fish limps from UTG+1, rec fish limps from LP, You are in the HJ and raise to $12 with 9 7, folds around to UTG+1 who limp/re-raises to $36 folds hero, Hero???

This is a dream spot. We know 100% that our villain has AA/KK and we are in position and villain is going to read us for AK, JJ, QQ, or KK or AQ or basically any hand that he can beat because he is never folding post flop. So we can call here and if we bink we can stack villain for $600!!! Conversely, if we whiff we can just fold. Post flop, if we hit with significant equity like pair + FD or pair + SD we can continue if we have the proper implied and direct odds. Basically, in this scenario it is hard for us to make a mistake but conversely our villain will because he will be unable to fold his monster that is 100% face up to us

Also in terms of making mistakes, we raise to $12 with 97s and villain limp re-raises us something ridiculous like $80, we can just fold. I find that having a wider raising range makes it easier for us to fold JJ and QQ when villains 3-bet us simply because we raise so much that it doesn't hurt us emotionally to fold when we know we are beat. Compare that to typical rec-fish who wait for 1 or 2 HOURS for their big hand and then FINALLY they get QQ and they raise and get 3-betted by some nit... said rec-fish just can't bring himself to fold that QQ. Whereas with us, since we raise once or twice per orbit folding to a 3-bet is no skin of our backs.